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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2006, 11:12:36 AM »
That may well be the first whinning post for you Shivas. What happened, a couple of good scores this weekend and all of the sudden you're pining for those competitive days again and getting sour in the mouth?  ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2006, 11:20:55 AM »
Do you think old guys are now precluded from winning?

Your theory seems to suggest a strength in participation cycle right now. Agree?

Zero fairways! wow.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2006, 11:26:44 AM »
Shivas..I had to laugh ..exactly my experience as well..now I hang on to the prospect of turning 55 for senior golf to open any can of whoop ass I may have left ;D

Zero fairways..time for a lesson perhaps?

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2006, 11:29:27 AM »
MR. Wharton Palmer:

It is well documented that Bob Jones voluntarily resigned his amateur status prior to doing the films, etc. He sent a letter to the USGA stating that although he didn't know that his intended actions were contrary to the rules of amateurism, he felt they would certainly violate the spirit of amateurism.

I think his attitude strengthens the concept of amateurism, and was not the begiing of the end, as you suggest.

The issue today is, of course, that the growth of the game, the ease of international travel, the rise of collegiate golf, and the increased relevance of national golf unions has brought about a need for a more uniform amateur code, one that can be applied equitably around the world.

I am all for a restrictive amateur code- I've lived within such a code my entire golf life. However, we must also be practical, and we must increase opportunity for all golfers, especially disadvantaged golfers, and there must be fewer, not more, roadblocks for them. Yet the rules must be equitable, and keep the spirit of amateurism (playing golf as a non-remunerative, non-profit making sport).

There have been changes, of course, necessary ones, but IMO changes which have not fundamentally altered amateur status.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2006, 11:37:43 AM »
Jim you are correct about his letter..which was never accepted by the USGA...and to his death Mr Jones said he was an amatuer..scowling at anybody who may have suggested otherwise.
This is certainly not a critisism of Mr Jones ..just showing that any financial issues concerning amateur golfers is not a new trend.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2006, 11:44:40 AM »
Shivas,

Unbelievable. I have felt that way for a long time and the winners of the US Amateur pretty much bear it out since John Harris in 93. You could even say the same about the finalists and the semifinalists for the most part. You have described exactly what has taken place. 30-45 has been screwed and we also missed out on those low-cut jeans, course I am a lot more upset about the jeans.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 11:45:38 AM by Glenn Spencer »

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2006, 11:51:46 AM »
Glen can you imagine trying to concentrate in class sitting behind a pair of those..thong included....but I digress...

You are correct the elite of amateur golf is now under the age of 22 as illustrated by the make up of both Walker Cup teams..a shame and as mentioned earlier not the true intent of what I believe amateur golf should represent.
But there will always be inequalaties..the insurance man who can play everyday leaving his business in the capable hands of his junior associates versus the doctor who has to be in the office to see the patients...so there can never be total even playing fields.
I think it all works out well, we know our respective places on the tournament trail..and find our level at which to compete.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2006, 11:57:40 AM »
Wouldn't this strength amongst the younger set prove there is a good participation rate in that demographic?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2006, 12:02:57 PM »
JES
Yes
it does, but I think it has more to do with the fact that they are playing college golf.
They play at least 6 days a week, are taken care of equpiment wise, and basically served as mini professionals.
This again is not a critisism just reality..how does  a working stiff plan on competing against that ?
Simple   for all intents and purpose he doesn't..and thus the growth of the mid am events that have saved the day for the likes of you and me.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2006, 12:05:30 PM »
MWP,

I would be concentrating alright!! ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2006, 12:15:26 PM »
Shivas,

Would you agree that the percentage of all 18-20 year olds that today play a fair amount of competition is greater than it was 20 years ago? Out of 1,000,000 18-20 year olds, how many play at a fairly high level? And how many did the same 20 years ago?


MWP,

There's always going to be an imbalance, as you say. Isn't it rewarding when you do pick off one of those guys that play 6 days right now?


Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2006, 12:44:53 PM »
JES
Nothing sweeter tahn beating the college bretheren!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2006, 01:18:30 PM »
Shivas,

I guess my point is that I don't see how it is the old dudes rightful place to beat anybody. The fact that there are many more young guys (relative to the total number of tournament ready players) today than 20 years ago just logically means there are fewer spots for us old dudes. I don't think the old guys 20 years ago had it easy in getting to the top of the amateur game (even to 10 per your referrence), they sacrificed in other areas that you and I might not be willing or able to.



What does the Tiger effect really do?

Maybe it's been covered before, but you obviously have some thoughts, please expand.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2006, 01:26:24 PM »
Shivas,

I guess my point is that I don't see how it is the old dudes rightful place to beat anybody. The fact that there are many more young guys (relative to the total number of tournament ready players) today than 20 years ago just logically means there are fewer spots for us old dudes. I don't think the old guys 20 years ago had it easy in getting to the top of the amateur game (even to 10 per your referrence), they sacrificed in other areas that you and I might not be willing or able to.



What does the Tiger effect really do?

Maybe it's been covered before, but you obviously have some thoughts, please expand.




Not easy 20 years ago, it has never been easy, but it certainly was a lot EASIER. How old was Sigel in 82-83. 40? Can anyone come up with someone that would even have a remote chance of repeating in this day and age. I can't think of anyone that would have a prayer.

ForkaB

Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2006, 01:38:34 PM »
Glenn

Gary Wolstenhome won the British Amateur a few years ago at age 42-43.  Trust me, the bellies of the great majority of the players in that field are as flat as they are in the US Amateur.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2006, 01:49:50 PM »
Remember that Sigel was on a track to be a successful pro all through junior golf and two years at Wake Forrest before a bad hand/arm injury put his career on hold for a few years. Once he got back to it he was virtually on a par with the good solid tour pros (not the stars) of the day. How do you think Olin Browne or Joe Ogilve would do in the US Amateur this year?

The contextual difference between finding a guy capable of winning the US Amateur while in his late 30's or older (once let alone twice) and documenting the percentage of young and old top 10 contenders in a state am level event are two different conversations. The US Am champ is a special, unique person that has the game to do so but has foregone the idea of turning pro. The top 10 breakdown speaks much more to this Tiger effect. The only thing I can see negative about the Tiger effect is the way they are marketed to. The presentation of the game has changed. It does not necessarily effect my life, but I think it does change how golf is viewed by golfers.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2006, 02:03:29 PM »
Rich,

03 Right? He also won it in 91. He can win it for sure. If you were in Vegas and said what would you place the odds that Gary Wolstenholme could win the 06 and 07 British Amateurs? I am guessing the answer would be at least 500-1. I think Sigel would have been much shorter than that. Wolstenholme might not even draw that good of odds.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2006, 02:09:31 PM »
I am just this year eligible again for competition in amateur events and plan on playing a few. Maybe my judgement is off, but I think the kids still play the same in relation to the old guys and the opportunities will be there.

Jay Sigel had a great line one time when I was caddying for him. I told him I had just caddied the week before in the local Nike Tour event (circa 1997) for Kevin Johnson and Jay said oh yeah, "I know Kevin. He was 6 under par at Jupiter Hills in the US Am when we walked off after 16 holes." Guess who won the match.



Glenn,

Is your point that there are not as many really good 30+ year olds these days? Or is it that there are too many really good 20 year olds? Or is it something else?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2006, 02:16:06 PM »
I've been reading Rich's posts on this topic for 6 years now and I still can't figure out what he has against the guys in the Crump Cup, etc. We already have hundreds of open events for the ams to test themselves against the pros (and vice versa, if the pros feel like beating up on the ams), etc. What is wrong with having some events that are restricted to amateurs? There are levels of competition in virtually every sport I can think of, every game as well (chess, bridge, poker, pool, etc).

No one is ever going to come up with perfect rules, for amateurism or anything else. You do your best and live with it.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2006, 04:58:02 PM »
Jim Sweeney...sorry...it is other entities that "rank' amateur golfers, and not the USGA...

LOCK HIM UP!!!

ForkaB

Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2006, 05:49:08 PM »
I've been reading Rich's posts on this topic for 6 years now and I still can't figure out what he has against the guys in the Crump Cup, etc. it.

George

I have nothing at all "against the guys in the Crump Cup."  In fact the ones I know who have played in it are all fine people.  All I've even done is offer the unsolicited and never to be listened to opinion that it could just as good or even better in an Open world of golf.  Crump wanted to test the best players in the world, didn't he?  Isn't it a sacrilege to have the cup in his name limited to amateurs, and not the very best of them in the golfing world at that?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2006, 05:55:33 PM »
Rich,

No, it is not a sacrilege, because Crump did not start the Crump Cup. A sacrilege is the manner in which the Ryder Cup is contested, when compared to its founding principles.

I've often seen this position of your and am curious, do all of these tournaments pay prize money? At what age does that start? Are there non-monetary tournaments also? Does the same organization run both type? Who pays for the purse? How does this improve anything about golf today?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2006, 06:10:42 PM »
Isn't that their decision?

Why have yet another event for Tiger & Co.?

Does the winner of the Crump Cup somehow think he's better than Tiger?

When you lose a match play event some random day, do you think that the winner walks away thinking he's the best golfer in the world that day? Do you, when you win?

I just don't understand why you seem to feel all events should be open.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

ForkaB

Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2006, 06:18:50 PM »
I just don't understand why you seem to feel all events should be open.

George if you have been reading all my posts for the past 6 years (as you say above) and don't understand my point on this issue, your reading comprehension must not be as good as you profess.... :o ;)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the concept of amateurism in golf in America.....
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2006, 07:27:14 PM »
Well, that's at least a clever cop out.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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