[TEPaul]

"Tom
Look up "decimation" in your dictionary.
Rich"

Rich:

You're getting more like Pat Mucci every day. Since you make dumb remarks about which you cannot provide answers to questions about them you resort to asking people to look up the definitions of the words you use.

I know what decimation means. The definition of decimation is not the question here.  

[TEPaul]

"The Crump Cup and the NGLA Singles and the Craw's Nest Tassie will survive. "

Rich:

That's where you're misguided and where you're wrong. Tournaments like that may survive for a time but not for long. This is precisely what has happened to amateur tennis---such things as its old counterparts in tennis to the Crump and the NGLA Singles in golf no longer exist.

This subject came up the other day while at the grand old Merion Cricket Club (tennis). There are still all those beautiful old grass tennis courts but very few use them anymore and it is nothing like it used to be. In the winter members do play squash but primarily the Merion Cricket club today is a restaurant. Tennis participation is basically gone because some years ago tennis lost the structure of its vertically intergrated amateur organization.

The applied concept of "Open" competition in a general sense kills the "amateur" competitive structure. The reasons why are completely obvious.

Even the sustainability of professional tennis seems lacking. One of the reasons is tennis has basically just about completely lost the comprehensive grass-roots amateur competitive structure and base it once had.

[ForkaB]

Tom you are somewhat right.

The question is why are you beating this dead horse, yet again?  What is so good about this "amateurism" that comforts the rich and corrupts the poor?

Honest and well thought out answers will be appreciated.....

[ForkaB]

"The Crump Cup and the NGLA Singles and the Craw's Nest Tassie will survive. "

Rich:

That's where you're misguided and where you're wrong. Tournaments like that may survive for a time but not for long. This is precisely what has happened to amateur tennis---such things as its old counterparts in tennis to the Crump and the NGLA Singles in golf no longer exist.

This subject came up the other day while at the grand old Merion Cricket Club (tennis). There are still all those beautiful old grass tennis courts but very few use them anymore and it is nothing like it used to be. In the winter members do play squash but primarily the Merion Cricket club today is a restaurant. Tennis participation is basically gone because some years ago tennis lost the structure of its vertically intergrated amateur organization.

The applied concept of "Open" competition in a general sense kills the "amateur" competitive structure. The reasons why are completely obvious.

Tom

Please do not be so naive to think that the Crump Cup or NGLA Singles or even the Craw's Nest Tassie are anything near what the old tennis grass circuit (Merion, Orange, Newport, etc.) used to be.  They had the best players in the world (excluding Laver, Gonzales and the small number (< 30) of the others pros) competing.  The "amateur" golf events above are just a bunch of old geezers and wannbe geezers.  Otherwise, how could you and Mucci play in them?

Lovingly

Rich

[TEPaul]

"Tom you are somewhat right.
The question is why are you beating this dead horse, yet again?"

Rich:

Beating a dead horse are your words and your opinions, not mine.

But the answer is to show how blind or misguided some people are to the things that are happening around them---people like you. And this despite some obvious historcal analogies. The cliche that if people are unaware of or do not understand history they are bound to repeat it, very much applies.

[TEPaul]

"Tom
Please do not be so naive to think that the Crump Cup or NGLA Singles or even the Craw's Nest Tassie are anything near what the old tennis grass circuit (Merion, Orange, Newport, etc.) used to be.  They had the best players in the world (excluding Laver, Gonzales and the small number (< 30) of the others pros) competing.  The "amateur" golf events above are just a bunch of old geezers and wannbe geezers.  Otherwise, how could you and Mucci play in them?"

Rich:

It's somewhat of a waste of time discussing a subject like this with you. Actually, it's just funny discussing a subject like this with you.

I never said the Crump or NGLA Singles was anything like the old tennis grass court circuit.

Matter of fact, I did not mention either one of them and I certainly didn't attempt to compare them or use them as some analogy. You did all that or implied that on your own.    

The old USLTA did have somewhat of a vertically integrated structure from national on down through the regional and local club structure the way the USGA and the state and regional associations in golf do now and has had for so long.

In tennis that is virtually gone now. In amateur golf it still survives. Will it survive in golf? Perhaps not if people fail to understand potential analogies in amateur golf to the virtual demise (decimation ) of amateur tennis.

[Craig Sweet]

Whether it's golf, tennis or skiing, there is much to learn from the histories of all of these sports.

Let's throw soccer into this mix....when that sport was new to the USA a kid could go play, everyone was welcomed on the local team, the grade school team, the high school team....but eventually there had to be formal organization...and the next thing you know a kid has to play on an organized summer pee-wee team...and then the best are selected for the U-12 team and the best from thAT bunch are selected for the U-18 team...by the time a kid reaches high shool he/she and his parents are tired of the politics, tired of the expense, tired of the travel, and sick and tired of soccer....only the few that are totally driven, wealthy, or talented beyond belief, continue on.

So, you can make the argument that over organized, over controled, FUN stifliing politics, can totally ruin amatuer participation.

[TEPaul]

Craig:

That is a most interesting point and analogy.

I'm a big believer and supporter of a form of "vertical integration" in an organizational sense in amateur golf but clearly there can be a tendency for things to get too "centralized" and consequentally too inflexible.

Excellent analogy with the US Soccer scene.

If you ask me parents these days just get way too involved in the lives of their children. Parents dictate to schools, to teachers, to the sports organizations their children participate in etc, etc way, way more than they used to.

In my opinion, parents should just drop their children off and get them completely out of their hair for as long as they possibly can.

I say let the little urchins run wild----in the end it's good for them and their imaginations and their self motivation.

Let the sports organizations and their counselors and such wack the little monsters around a bit for a number of hours and teach them some damn manners----because their parents aren't doing a very good job of it today.

Some used to say children should be seen and not heard. I always thought that shouild be taken a step further where they should be out of sight, out of sound and out of mind at least for a very large portion of each day.

Let the little urchins run wild----it's good for them.

I also say that all kids should be limited to 7 1/2 minutes per day with video games, television and cell phones. If they get bored tell them to go throw pebbles in a pond or draw something in the dirt.

[Jason Topp]

Tom - as the father of two kids active with sports and music, I echo much of your sentiments.  

My nine year old daughter is getting close to the level where she will probably have to choose between gymnastics and soccer if she wants to continue to compete at the highest level that she could.  Soccer basically runs 12 months a year (in Minnesota) and gymastics does.  Friends who started gymnastics earlier than my daughter now practice 14-20 hours per week.  I would absolutely hate to squelch her love for both sports but by the same token, would hate to diminish her competitive drive to compete at the highest level she can.  

My daughter is probably at best a threat to make a high school team someday.  There must be millions other kids with as much or more ability than she has.  Having a system in place that is so demanding is just silly at that age and probably dangerous because it drives kids away from participation.

My approach has been to let the kids dictate what they do.

Whenever my kids are bored, my immediate thought is "good."  It is when they come up with the most creative and interesting things to do.

[Glenn Spencer]

TEPAUL,

The USGA and the USTA both have the national championship responsibility for their respective sports. The regional associations as I remember them, in Ohio, it was the Western Tennis Association and that covered, I believe Ohio, West Virginia, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana and I think Wisconsin. The only way that a player was getting to Philadelphia or Indianapolis was to be good enough to get invited or qualify through the Westerns. The WTA no longer exists I believe, I don't know what it is now. The edge that golf seemed to have when I was younger was the state associations, I don't remember there being an Ohio Amateur for Tennis, I could be wrong, but I don't remember it. My sister and I had to travel all around those aforementioned states to play in tournaments. I think that it was the same for a 35-year old that wanted to play competitively. I don't know if it is the same now, but I would imagine that back then it made it harder for someone to continually keep playing tennis competitively at the amateur level. Oh, there was the OVTA, but that was several states as well. I guess that could be somewhat considered the state level, but not really. Local-in golf there is the Miami Valley Golf Association. In tennis, all I remember was the County tournaments for age groups, once a year, nothing on-going. It justs seems like you need to 'want' it a lot more in tennis.

[ForkaB]

Glenn

I played in the WTA Juniors at Springfield, OH.  It was always held the week before the Junior Nationals at Kalamazoo so guys from around the Country could get acclimatized. Those were the good old days when one could play American Legion baseball one week, then two weeks of high level tennis, and then some one-design sailing when you came home.  These days being able to do just one of those would be stretch and a chore, alas......

Jason

I have an 8-year old budding gymnast who thinks she is going to make a living at the sport by becoming Olypmic Champion.  She only trains 7 hours a week, and talented as she is, I have neither the heart nor the inclination to tell her that there are girls her age in Beijing, Moscow and Houston who are training 25+ hours a week and she really has no chance....

[Garland Bayley]

...
Do you know what the single biggest demand item is for potential and club members today?

Come on Tom,
Clue us in before we have to go off and do other things and miss out.

[TEPaul]

Glenn and Rich:

I would venture to bet that those tennis tournaments you spoke of when you were young probably don't exist any longer or not anything like the extent they did when you two were little sporting urchins. Rich does not appreciate the significance of this and that is why he's been correctly labeled "Richard, His Magnificent Obtuseness".

"Come on Tom,
Clue us in before we have to go off and do other things and miss out."

OK, Garland---you who supposes Americans are not a fit as they used to be or uninterested in fittness. The biggest demand item of potential members to golf clubs is a fittness center, my fine feathered friend.

[ForkaB]

Glenn and Rich:

I would venture to bet that those tennis tournaments you spoke of when you were young probably don't exist any longer or not anything like the extent they did when you two were little sporting urchins.

Sorry to disappoint you, Tom, but they still play regionals at Springfield and the Nationals are still played at Kalamazoo.  And you want to know something else (probably not, but I'll tell you anyway...) when I played there in 1964, the best under 18 in the USA then (Cliff Richey) wasn't there because he had become a shamateur and was playing your beloved men's USLTA circuit!  We had to settle for Stan Smith as Junior champion that year......

[Garland Bayley]

..
OK, Garland---you who supposes Americans are not a fit as they used to be or uninterested in fittness. The biggest demand item of potential members to golf clubs is a fittness center, my fine feathered friend.

Tom,
That was Doug that supposed that Americans were not fit, nor interested. My recollection (which can be faulty) is that there have been news reports that the most unfit are the most poor. Most of them don't have the wherewithal to take up golf.

[Craig Sweet]

TEPaul...

Just a wild "hunch" on my part, but I think there are a lot of golf clubs out there that take the additude of "let the USGA do the heavy lifting", and lets limit our role in developing junior golfers.

If this hunch is correct, then I think there is a big problem.  I am much bigger believer in "horizontal integration".....in other words, organization that is broad, varied, decentralized, and far reaching.

The model of playing up throught the ranks of the USGA tournament system, using their rankings, etc...stifles participation. By it's very nature it narrows the field and discourages participation.

[JESII]

Craig,

How about if it did not narrow the fields.

I'm not too familiar with all of this, but it seems to me that at the most basic level there is no real need for field limitations so long as there is an "advancement" opportunity.

I can't say I agree with your opinion that a "broad, varied, decentralized organization" is the best thing (but let's not argue that right now) when the groundwork is pretty well in place for the type of vertical integration Tom speaks of. Parhaps I am too isolated here in the Philadelphia area, but young kids have a pretty substantial opportunity to play competitively (and practice) at different levels from a very young age. I am certain this type of infrastructure is not the norm across the country (or world for that matter), but the blueprint is certainly there to be followed.

[Glenn Spencer]

Another thing, you can't practice by yourself.

[ForkaB]

Glenn

Backboards were good enough for Chris Evert and me.....

[Glenn Spencer]

Rich,

For you they might have been, but Chrissy could always get a game with her father.

[ForkaB]

Glenn

I could always get a game with my father too, but he was crap.

[Jim Sweeney]

Craig:

Perhaps you would describe the USGA's "ranking system" and how golfers "play up through the ranks." In my now almost thirty years of participation in golf I have never heard of any such system in the USGA. Perhaps I am just un-observant.

The USGA has no programs of which I am aware to develop golfers. It does spend millions of dollars in support of external developmental programs such as the First Tee and the LPGA Junior Girls, as well as in state and regional associations and independent programs in communities around the country for juiniors, veterans, the disabled, and the disadvantaged. The USGA certainly recognizes the need for such programs, hence its financial support, but the PGA of America, LPGA, and the local and regional organizations are the ones in the best position to deliver the programs.

Participation in USGA championships is earned through the Darwinian phenomena called qualifiers, not by playing up through a ranking system. Of course competitive golfers often prove themselves in lesser competitions before tackling national championships, but there is no requirement that one do so.

For all you gymnast Dads.......

My daughter recently ended her gymnastics career. May I make a few suggestions?

1) The injury rate in gymnastics is 100%. When your daughter gets injured, stop the gymnastics until she is healed. Listen to your doctors, not her coaches. If they press the issue, change gyms.

2) GYmnastics parents are as bad as little league hockey parents. Keep it fun for your daughter. If she's 8 and has Olympic dreams, don't discourage her, she'll realize the truth soon enough. But encourge the fun and physical benefits, and really reward her when she overcomes big obstacles, particularly fear. It's about her and the event, not the other gymnasts.

3) Six or eight hours a week in the gym is enough, unless the child has true talent. Get a second opinion on that, and still be skeptical. The physical benefits your daughter will reap will remain for the rest of her life. AS she develops, watch your daughter around her non-gymnast friends as see the difference. Also watch for over training, eating disorders, or loss of life balance- things that can damage her physically and mentally. She should be in Girl Scouts, Young Life, church youth group, or another non-athletic activity as well.

4) Keep your daughter in school. If the gym won't work with her schedule or tries to force homeschooling, change gyms. There is no substitute for the social interaction of the schoolhouse. And all those good home schooling intentions and justifications tend to go away as soon as an easier or more attractive opportunity comes along. If you want to homeschool-great- help her with her homework every night!

Sorry for going so OT- but I've seen more than I wanted to ever see of this, though we were fortunate to avoid it, too.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

As someone who competes in approximately 15/20 AMATEUR evenst every year, the distinction between pro and amatuer is alive and well...and must be maintained at all cost.
Yes, I know that the rules have been softened significantly over the past 5 yeras , but that is primarily to help out the college kids in their pursuit of top amteur golf competition.

The need to compete on a national level, now invloves the travel to nationwide events..the days of being selected for  Walker Cup based on performances in northern claifornia..ala Venturi...are gone..you have to perform on anationwide scale and that is very expensive..thus the rule changes.

However..Is that truly the meaning of the Walker Cup?

Should the event not more closely mirror the initial premise of the trophy representing the true amateur ideal?
Good question, but somewhat irrelevant as the two governing bodies have decided the trophy represents the best players on the two sides of the atlantic..and not those who perhaps represent the true amateur ideal.

Sure the concept of college golf in itself pushes the "ideal" amateur concepts to the limits, but that is the current situation.
True amateur golf does indeed exist..those playing in the club monthly medal..those teeing it up at The Crump or Travis or Coleman...true amateur golfers competing at the top level against others who work as well.
If you throw out the college kids, the rules for amatuer golf are not that much changed..and the tournamenst we play in the same they have always been...but most importantly that distinction between pro and non pro is very strong.

The reinstatement policy has in my opinion become too leniant.
If a guy decides to turn pro and play..he has made that choice and should be banished from the game he chose to leave for at least 5 years..none of this 18 month farce...there should be some reward for the guy who chooses to work for aliving and still wnat to compete.

Mnay of the best new wave of events have recognised the college kid dilema and have a 30 plus age limit on their event..these tend to be the best events and at the best courses..ie Inverness, Pine valley, Garden City to name but a few few.

I think the usga made a mistake when they instituted the mid am division, in that the age was set too low at 25 and that should have been 30 or even 35...but since when have the usga made decisions for the better of the game ?

Perhaps the time has come to start another Walker Cup like event for those 35+ which will bring us back closer the intial amteur ideal.

So...in summary..amateur golf is alive and well...under no circumstances does the game need to go "open"  that will truly kill the top level amateur game that we know and love.

[ForkaB]

Perhaps the time has come to start another Walker Cup like event for those 35+ which will bring us back closer the intial amteur ideal.

Michael

That is a really good idea!  Particularly if it also eliminates the Wolstenholmes of the world who make their living based on their golfing ability.

Rich

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Rich
I agree the criteria should be very stringent...as I said the original amateur ideal!

Of course the problem all started when Bobby Jones was paid to endorse products and produce a teaching series for money but the USGA deemed that non professional.

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