[TEPaul]

.....becoming an anachronism?

If it is amongst particularly young golfers with the dream of professional golf or even elite amateurs prone to the allure of some type of financial remuneration what can be done to stop the ever increasing and ever encroaching reality of commercialism/professionalisn in golf to protect the vibrancy of amateur golf's national, state, regional and local amateur structure?

30-35 years ago the onslaught of professionalism in tennis coupled with the inability of amateur tennis's national organization (the USLTA) to cope with it basically destroyed the vibrancy of amateur tennis in America.

I do not guarantee this statisic but recently I heard that 25-30 years ago there were over 25 million tennis players in America in the national amateur tennis structure and today there are only 3 million.

What is the future of the structure of amateur golf in America? Will it, for whatever reason, follow the plight of the structure of amateur tennis in America? And, if not, why not?

[Garland Bayley]

One thing I know. I can go play golf with single digit GCAers and have a good time without causing them excessive boredom or inhibiting their game in any way. However, if there were an equivalent difference between us in tennis, they wouldn't even want to give me the time of the day.

Besides, tennis just doesn't do it for me. Does it for you?

[JESII]

On the amateur status front, why does the USGA continue to soften its rules?

My belief is that at some point the USGA will have to follow the old phrase told to parents of young children, you're not supposed to be friends, you're supposed to guide.

Commercialism will never stop. I am glad for that. I want the responsibility for keeping these kids on a proper, fulfilling track to be on their parents. The USGA seems to soften their rules after a certain amount of pressure builds up, my goals would be to fight that because I think their (USGA) core values and principles are what is best for the game.

[Glenn Spencer]

I am someone that played both sports very competitively. The problem with tennis is that whether it is necessary or not, the practice schedule is extremely demanding. I remember having to practice both before school and after school and it was tough. Golf can take up a lot of time, but it is never tough mentally on a kid, like tennis is. It is VERY easy to burn out and tough physically, as you must watch everything that you eat and all that. Tennis has been dying a slow death ever since McEnroe, Connors and Chrissy left the game, the womens' game had its moments, but then Seles got stabbed and the best of all time was on the shelf for close to 4 years. The interest is waning and kids would rather play a sport that is more fun. Also, for whatever it is worth, both are individual sports, but to me, there was always a ton more camaraderie in golf.

[TEPaul]

Tennis has been dying since McEnroe, Connors and Chrissy left the game??? Tennis has been dying since Seles got stabbed?

I'm talking about amateur tennis, Glenn? Are you aware that the beginning of the decline in amateur participation in tennis completely coincided with the effective demise of the USLTA and it's national, regional and club structure?

Why didn't all those participating amateur tennis players for the first three quarters of the 20th century feel it was too tough to practice or that it was boring and lacked camaraderie??  

[Glenn Spencer]

TEPaul,

All I know is I found competitive golf at about 12 and have never looked back. Is USLTA, United States Lawn and Tennis Association? I am not aware of that demise. I played from 80-87 and the game couldn't have seemed any healthier. If that thinking is wrong, then so am I. I see what you are saying about golf potentially heading this way, I just don't see it happening as easily because you don't have to stay in shape like you do in tennis.

[TEPaul]

Glenn;

Never mind.

Golf must be a game designed for fat, out of shatpe or unheathy people. Obviously that's always been the key to its enduring success.

[Glenn Spencer]

What do you mean never mind? I would like to hear what you have to say. Do you not think that the fact that you don't have to be in shape is a big factor for some people choosing golf over tennis?

[TEPaul]

Good night Glenn.

[Garland Bayley]

Glenn,

I for one chose golf over tennis when I was extremely fit. Tennis never gave the thrills that golf can give even to hackers.

Since you don't know USLTA, I don't think Tom thinks you can contribute to his analogy between USGA and USLTA.

Of course I must warn you, I always get in trouble when I try to interpret Tom when Tom is watching.

[Glenn Spencer]

Garland,

I think a lot of people make the same choice that you did. I was just saying that a lot of people play other sports for a long time and then turn to golf because it is not that physically taxing. I thought that I might be able to contribute to this post because I was a good enough tennis player to play in the Westerns two years under the age requirement and I decided that I could play competitive golf all my life and that was not totally true for tennis. I guess I was wrong. The USTA is all I know.

[Garland Bayley]

Yes Glenn, that lifelong sport thing influenced me too.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom,
I think this is one of the most interesting and important threads to come around in a long time. It seems to me to be interconnected to so many other issues we discuss on this board: golf club technology, quality architecture, the ethos and impact of the professional game on golf's current culture (e.g. maintenance practices, fairness in design etc), support for the public game/courses, and the relative expense of playing the game with any regularity.  

My impression is that never before has the ethos/value system of the professional game (i.e. what the pros want and deem important in their courses and equipment, etc) had so much impact/affect on the amateur game.  While this might not be disastrous, it can't be a good thing: the two will never be one, and the attempt to bring them together will break one of them apart - and I doubt it will be the pro game.

I think the reason so many people stopped playing tennis recreationally is tied in some way to the emergence of  learning factories like the Bollettieri/IMG Tennis Academies, especially those that catered to talented youngsters.  The message a place like that sends (and young people are better than we give them credit for at picking up the messages we send, especially the unconscious ones) is that the value of the game is not the game itself, but one's mastery of the game, and the pursuit of personal excellence in the game, and all so as to make the game a vehicle for professional prestige and success. Naturally (it seems to me), the kids who sensed that they were not cut out for this kind of greatness gravitated to some other game.  Is it a coincidence that American kids are now playing soccer in record numbers, even though soccer at the professional level is virtually non existent in America?

I think there is a real danger that the many golf academies around will have something of a similar impact on the game of golf. I can only guess to what degree, for as others point out the games are in other ways very different. But if the next generation of (would be) amateur golfers do indeed leave the game, it can only become less and less relevant and more and more expensive ...and that’s bad for business all around.

Does the trend simply mirror the increased corporatization of life in general. I think there’s that too.

Sorry to be a downer. I hope I'm wrong.

Peter

     

[Doug Siebert]

I have to think that the decline in fitness in America bears at least some of the responsibility.  While tennis became harder for the average person because the average person was less fit, golf became easier for them as the golf cart became entrenched in American golf.

The other problem with tennis is that you have to play with someone else of at least something like your own ability, or it isn't any fun.  But I could fill out a foursome with Tiger Woods, a ten year old kid and a great grandmother and we could all have fun playing together -- on the right course even from the same teeboxes.

[Garland Bayley]

... Is it a coincidence that American kids are now playing soccer in record numbers, even though soccer at the professional level is virtually non existent in America?
...

The reason kids are playing soccer, is that it is a lot more fun than tennis, as is basketball, and baseball, and even football for those with the right mindset.
As far as kids not playing golf because there are golf academies that send the message that you have to be robogolfer all day, that is (IMHO) hogwash.

[Garland Bayley]

Doug,

I don't buy the fitness argument you made. Define the demographics of who is not fit, and correlate that to the people that have the option of playing golf.

I am one of the most overweight people in my group and in my company. Yet I easily go out and walk 18 in 90+ heat on a hilly course carrying my own bag. At the same time there are people that are very fit, riding carts to play golf.

[Kevin_Reilly]

One of my partners is a member of Kittansett and he gave me a reprint (produced by the club) of the 1953 Walker Cup program.  Reading this last night, with the biographical information about the US and GB&I teams, made me think about how much amateur golf has changed.

Here are the US team members, and a quick excerpt about each from the program (I'm re-typing, so will just pull out summary info from each bio):

Jack Westland - "The present USGA Amateur Champion is strictly a week-end golfer with a picture-book swing. Mr. Westland is 48, married, and has one son.  He lives in Everett, Washington and represents his district in the House of Representatives of the United States Congress.

Sam Urzetta - Mr. Urzetta was widely known to sports followers as a basketball star at St. Bonaventure University before he leaped to prominence in golf winning the 1950 Amatuer Championship from Frank Stranahan....Mr. Urzetta was married last winter, is now 27, lives in East Rochester, N.Y. and is a button salesman.

E. Harvie Ward, Jr. - Mr. Ward is a newcomer to the team.  A native of Tarboro N.C., and a graduate of North Carolina, he is now married, 27, and living in Atlanta where he is a stockbroker.

William C. Campbell - Mr. Campbell is a veteran of the 1951 Walker Cup and the 1952 Americas Cup team.  He has been an Army Captain and an unsuccessful candidate for Congressional nomination.  A graduate of Princeton, he is 30, single, an insurance agent and broker in Huntington, W. Va.

Kenneth P. Venturi - Mr. Venturi is a senior at San Jose State College and has won the California Amatuer Championship and has earned a considerable reputation in Northern California.  He has had few opportunities to compete outside his home district.  He is, at 22, the youngest member of the team.  He lives in San Francisco and is single.

Charles R. Coe - This will be the third time this 29 year old graduate of the University of Oklahoma has represented the United States in Walker Cup play.  He is in the oil investment business, and is married, with two sons.

Donald R. Cherry - Mr. Cherry, at 29, is a newcomer to the Walker Cup Team.  A bachelor, Mr. Cherry is a professional entertainer, singing popular songs, on records, radio, television and in theatres and night clubs throughout the country.

Richard D. Chapman - Mr Chapman is the only golfer who has won the Amatuer Championships of the United States, Great Britain, Canada and France.  He is an Estate Executor, 42, married, with two sons, the elder at Williams College and the younger, 11, will shortly be competing with his father at scratch.

Gene A. Littler - Mr. Littler is an Airman in the U.S. Navy, stationed in San Diego, where he has been dominating amatuer golf in his leisure hours.  He is 23 and married.  This is his first Walker Cup match.

James J. Jackson - Mr. Jackson of Richmond Heights, Mo., is a graduate of Washington University, 30, and a salesman.  He is married and has one son.  This is his first Walker Cup match.

This team, aside from Ken Venturi, bears no resemblance to any recent Walker Cup team!

As an aside, the team was captained by Charlie Yates.

[Garland Bayley]

Well Ken Venturi may have been the only collegian, but Gene Littler was no slouch either.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I know diddlysquat about the amateur organisation of either sport.  But the term 'elite amateur'  is now a non sequitor.  Buy some shares in IMG and get them to tell you how many relatives of top young golf talent are now employed by them to travel around to all the big tournaments, "Oh and don't leave the kid home alone".  It's not just Mr Wie.

I would think that over the past few decades a promising golfer would have spent some time at a US university, there's no need for that anymore.

Even the long term amateur competitor Gary Wolstenhome has earned his living as a consultant to a golf club for the past 10 years.

[ForkaB]

I know diddlysquat about the amateur organisation of either sport.  But the term 'elite amateur'  is now a non sequitor.  Buy some shares in IMG and get them to tell you how many relatives of top young golf talent are now employed by them to travel around to all the big tournaments, "Oh and don't leave the kid home alone".  It's not just Mr Wie.

I would think that over the past few decades a promising golfer would have spent some time at a US university, there's no need for that anymore.

Even the long term amateur competitor Gary Wolstenhome has earned his living as a consultant to a golf club for the past 10 years.

Good post, Tony, and your last sentence says it all.

Neither golf nor tennis has EVER been the province of the true amateur.  On that Walker Cup team that Kevin kindly provided, you have Harvey Ward and Ken Venturi who were both at one point "working" for the San Francisco car dealer and erstwhile Ouimet caddie Eddie Lowery whilst playing golf full time.  The USGA eventually got around to slapping their wrists in the mid 50's.  I laso doubt if Gene Littler had any serious naval duties to perform other than golf.  In Tom Paul's good old days of tennis (when a few of his buddies on the Main Line pretended that they actually ran the sport...) the top players (e.g. Ashe, Smith, Ralston, etc.) were called "shamateurs" and for good reason.  Of course they really weren't the best players (those were guys like Laver and Gonzales who had SHOCK HORROR!!! turned pro and thus been ostracised by the establishment).  When tennis went Open it was a very good thing for the sport, except for those administrators who lost their power.

Tom's claim of a near decimation of tennis participation since it became open is wrong.  I remember finding refuting statistics to this claim the last time we "debated" this issue.  Both tennis and golf are at some sort of equilibrium these days.  Both have a core group of devoted players and a lot of fringe particpants.  Both have strengths and weaknesses.  Golf has longer "legs" (in the wine drinking sense)-you can play it at a reasonably high level of competition throughout your life.  Tennis has a more Darwinian competitive aspect and better cardio-vascular benefits.  But, as Doug said above, there is always the conundrum of the better you are the harder it is to find an interesting game.  That's why I effectively quit tennis in my mid-20's.  In golf, even if you are paired with hackers and/or jerks you can still have an interesting inner game.

Getting back to the specific topic, the sooner that we in golf eliminate that phony distinction between professional and amateur, the better the game will be--except, of course, for the dinosaurs of privilege who still think they ought to rule the sporting world.

[TEPaul]

"Tom's claim of a near decimation of tennis participation since it became open is wrong.  I remember finding refuting statistics to this claim the last time we "debated" this issue.  Both tennis and golf are at some sort of equilibrium these days.  Both have a core group of devoted players and a lot of fringe particpants.  Both have strengths and weaknesses.  Golf has longer "legs" (in the wine drinking sense)-you can play it at a reasonably high level of competition throughout your life.  Tennis has a more Darwinian competitive aspect....  But, as Doug said above, there is always the conundrum of the better you are the harder it is to find an interesting game.  That's why I effectively quit tennis in my mid-20's.  In golf, even if you are paired with hackers and/or jerks you can still have an interesting inner game."

Rich:

I've seen people on here contradict themselves in a single paragraph but that one of yours above pretty much takes the cake to date.  

[TEPaul]

"Getting back to the specific topic, the sooner that we in golf eliminate that phony distinction between professional and amateur, the better the game will be--except, of course, for the dinosaurs of privilege who still think they ought to rule the sporting world.  "

Rich:

A remark like that is everything that's wrong with the "complainers" on here---eg hollow talk--no plan and no action. Eliminating the phony distintion between professional and amateur and making the game better has a nice rah-rah ring to it but why don't you explain, and in detail, how you think that can happen?    

[ForkaB]

"Tom's claim of a near decimation of tennis participation since it became open is wrong.  I remember finding refuting statistics to this claim the last time we "debated" this issue.  Both tennis and golf are at some sort of equilibrium these days.  Both have a core group of devoted players and a lot of fringe particpants.  Both have strengths and weaknesses.  Golf has longer "legs" (in the wine drinking sense)-you can play it at a reasonably high level of competition throughout your life.  Tennis has a more Darwinian competitive aspect....  But, as Doug said above, there is always the conundrum of the better you are the harder it is to find an interesting game.  That's why I effectively quit tennis in my mid-20's.  In golf, even if you are paired with hackers and/or jerks you can still have an interesting inner game."

Rich:

I've seen people on here contradict themselves in a single paragraph but that one of yours above pretty much takes the cake to date.  

Tom

Look up "decimation" in your dictionary.

Rich

[TEPaul]

"The USTA is all I know."

Glenn:

It would be a big help to this discussion if you could compare and contrast in reach and structure the USTA with the USGA. Does tennis have anything like the vertically integrated national, state, regional and local association structure amateur golf has? And if not, I wonder why?

"I have to think that the decline in fitness in America bears at least some of the responsibility.:

DougS:

About six weeks ago GAP (Golf Association of Philadelphia) held a seminar for local club officials and administrators about successful club management and membership recruitement today. Many clubs are looking for moe effective ways of attracting members, and in the process they look to modernize and upgrade their facilities. This national club management consultant who spoke had a list of the most demanded items and activities amongsts clubs today.

Do you know what the single biggest demand item is for potential and club members today?

[ForkaB]

"Getting back to the specific topic, the sooner that we in golf eliminate that phony distinction between professional and amateur, the better the game will be--except, of course, for the dinosaurs of privilege who still think they ought to rule the sporting world.  "

Rich:

A remark like that is everything that's wrong with the "complainers" on here---eg hollow talk--no plan and no action. Eliminating the phony distintion between professional and amateur and making the game better has a nice rah-rah ring to it but why don't you explain, and in detail, how you think that can happen?    

Tom

The plan is very simple.  Effectively eliminate the dead-as-a-doornail concept of the "Amateur."  That concept died well before the 1960's.  The USGA can then focus on the rules (and the B&I issues--if they have the cojones), their Opens (fuggedabout the "amateurs"), and give back their ~$200 million war chest to the game, rather than to their merchant bankers.  The Crump Cup and the NGLA Singles and the Craw's Nest Tassie will survive.  Hyprocisy will not.  Isn;'t that a good thing?

Rich

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