[Tom_Doak]

Jeff Warne:

What you've said about having another set of tees behind the 6700 markers is the common response from our clients when we want to keep the golf course short, but it just doesn't always work out as well that way.  If the property is relatively flat it doesn't matter much [which is why a course like Winged Foot can keep adding yardage as long as they have acreage].  But if you have good, undulating property, the scale of undulations often doesn't suit 300-yard tee shots.  If you put the tees further back you can't see where you're going clearly and/or you need a bunch of ugly fill to get the tee up to where you can see.

[tonyt]

I'm confused why any course ever has to play more than 6700 yards for a given individual.

Nobody is forced to play from the tips. But everyone is forced to walk that course, no matter what tees they play from. I'm talking about the shorter course that takes considerably less effort and time to play, ALL equally a part of the experience as the shorter holes. Additionally, if the tips are at around 6500-6800 yards, it allows for more diverse green complex movement for the elite player. No use making a guy play a 7300 yard course that is designed for the elite player to play and be heftily challenged at 6700 yards. It also allows for a more intimate routing at times, and definitely provides flexibility in a greater percentage of the same available land to use.

Not a rant against long courses. A point in favour of more medium length to shorter ones, and their differing features that go beyond separate tee boxes.

[jeffwarne]

Tony,
You make an excellent point about having to walk the whole course (unless back teeers are walking backwards).

I certainly would prefer to see most courses be 6500-6900 yards max as that would satisfy 99.999 % of all golf games and should be able to satisfy 100% of all golfers.

Frankly, I'm not really a fan of 4-5 sets of tees either as an imaginative player can create a satisfying course from one or two sets of tees.

Tom Doak's point is well taken about topography affecting ease and practicality  of placement of extra tees, which is why I used the "could" in describing such a set of seldom used back tees.
 

[Jason Blasberg]

Under par only once in my life, last year    

Although my best ball striking round ever was last year in a 3-4 club wind at Tall Grass, I shot level par and made 2 birdies with 4-wood approaches to within 5 feet.

(Current index is 3.4, has been as low as 2.8 and as high as 6. something in the last 15 years).

6,700 yards with lots of interest off the tee and on the greens is plenty.  Of course it matters what par is, par 70 or 73 would matter greatly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony, Baltusrol Lower/Upper are pretty close to what you describe although technically the Upper is a par 72.

Cliff,

Why did you state that "technically" the Upper is a par 72.

The card reads par 72
Four par 5's, # 1, # 8, # 11, # 17
Four par 3's, # 3, # 7, # 10, # 15
and 10 par 4's.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Glenn, where are all those easy 7400 yard courses?  

[Jim Nugent]

Nope.

Glenn, where are all those easy 7400 yard courses?  

Maybe at altitude, which could shorten them by 5% to 10% or so right off the bat.  

[tonyt]

The unmentioned part of my point is that the very challenging 6500-6800 yard journey would of course, for the average mid teen handicap golfer, play to around 6100-6300 yards from the middle or regular tee (as opposed to the forward tee).

Because we use metres and not yards in Australia, we don't have a magical 6000 yard mental barrier. That figure clocks in at the mid 5000s for us in metres, and so the regular tees at most courses are under no pressure to hit 6000m (6540 yards approx).

Indeed, Australia has in fact far more 18 hole courses measuring less than 6000m from the back "plates" that it does over 6000m. Suffice to say, it is rare for a modern upscale facility to ever consider going less than around 6150-6200m (over 6700 yards).

[Cliff Hamm]

Tony, Baltusrol Lower/Upper are pretty close to what you describe although technically the Upper is a par 72.

Cliff,

Why did you state that "technically" the Upper is a par 72.

The card reads par 72
Four par 5's, # 1, # 8, # 11, # 17
Four par 3's, # 3, # 7, # 10, # 15
and 10 par 4's.

Pat...technically you are correct.  The Upper is a par 72.  It was stated in reference to Tony indicating a second course with a par of 70, so I was merely pointing out that the Upper was not really a par 70 but was very close to his criteria.  One could make the case that at least #1 could easily be a par 4 for the better player.

Cliff

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

I found that our three courses in Australia (including the yet-to-be-built Fingal course at St. Andrews Beach) came out 6600 or 6700 yards, with par of 70 or 71.  I did consciously make sure that they were over 6000 metres and that's how they all landed at this new magic figure.

[James Bennett]

My club (Blackwood) has a Plan which if implemented will reduce the metreage from above to below 6000 metres.  This notion was not well received by some of the members during the debate over the Plan.  The loss of distance would be coupled by a reduction in par from 72 to 71 (70 could be better!).  The Committee position to the members was to seek the retention of course rating against par - currently par is 72 vs CCR 72, afterwards (supposedly - we are a long way from getting there) par 71 vs CCR 71.

It is very tempting for some to argue for a stretching of a few tees to stretch out 5950 metres to 6001 metres, but the balance and increased congestion that results from playing such tees to get 51 metres on a small acreage of land isn't worth it, IMO.

Another Adelaide club on small acreage has recently reduced its length from above to below 6000 metres (Tea Tree Gully).  Good on them!

James B

[Doug Siebert]

Don't I wish.  I've only broken par on a course that's barely over 6000 yards and if it was rated and sloped I doubt I would have beaten my handicap.  I'm a 6 (getting worse once I get around to posting the crap I've been shooting so far this year -- playing injured sucks!) and the best I've ever been is a 4.3.

I did shoot a 74 on my 74.1/134 home course once about 6 years ago when I was a 4.7, only time I've ever managed a negative differential.

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