Is there a difference between "Good/Very Good/Great" and just "Fun"?

[Tim Gavrich]

I wonder if there are certain golf courses which we regard as fun but not necessarily good architecture.  Conversely, are there certain golf courses which are very good, but not the most fun?  Do golf courses tend to have personality like people might.

As an example of a golf course that is good but not necessarily fun, I think of Bethpage Black.  I have not played it, but from what I have heard and seen, it looks like a minimally rewarding bruiser, which is still a very good golf course.  For the converse, I think more of the now-deceased Winyah Bay Golf Course in Georgetown, SC.  There were a lot of short par 4s with a chance to bang one up near the green, but it certainly wasn't "great architecture" (I may be partial to it because it was the first golf course on which I ever broke 100).  The last four holes were especially interesting, not for their design, but their location in the marshland by the Bay.

Agree/disagree?  Does a golf course have to be fun in order to be great?

[ed_getka]

I would say no a course doesn't have to be fun to be great. However, it comes down to what you value. For some hard=great=fun. Bethpage is probably a good example. For me, Olympic Lake is another example of a great course that isn't that much fun for me. Olympic Lake puts a premium on all the weakest parts of my game, so it feels like my head is in a vise when I am done. Playing there is fun on some level because I am golfing, but OL doesn't come near North Berwick for soul-inspiring FUN, for me. I think it really comes down to personal preference.

[Chris Kane]

I can't think of a course I've seen that isn't fun to play which I rate highly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wonder if there are certain golf courses which we regard as fun but not necessarily good architecture.  Conversely, are there certain golf courses which are very good, but not the most fun?  Do golf courses tend to have personality like people might.

YES[/color]

As an example of a golf course that is good but not necessarily fun, I think of Bethpage Black.  

I'd disagree, I think BPB is fun to play.

I think you have to look at your question in the context of your abilities, and scoring.

If a short hitting 20 handicap played the back tees at BPB, he's got a days work ahead of him because the golf course is beyond his playing ability.   He could still have fun on a given day, but, day in and day out, he'd be frustrating himself because he can't handle the golf course, just like a novice skier can't handle a double diamond run.

But, if that golfer played from the appropriate tees he might have a better chance of enjoying himself on a daily basis.[/color]

I have not played it, but from what I have heard and seen, it looks like a minimally rewarding bruiser, which is still a very good golf course.  For the converse, I think more of the now-deceased Winyah Bay Golf Course in Georgetown, SC.  There were a lot of short par 4s with a chance to bang one up near the green, but it certainly wasn't "great architecture" (I may be partial to it because it was the first golf course on which I ever broke 100).  The last four holes were especially interesting, not for their design, but their location in the marshland by the Bay.

All too often golfers play from the wrong tees and as a result, struggle, on the course and in the scoring department, but, from the appropriate tees they'll enjoy themselves.

I don't think a golf course can be considered great unless you do have fun on it.

ANGC is a great golf course from all the way back, and fun, provided you have that appropriate game for it.  If not,
then it won't be fun for you because you're playing the wrong golf course and have to move to the tees that are commensurate with your game.[/color]

Agree/disagree?  Does a golf course have to be fun in order to be great?

Yes, but in a qualified context of playing a golf course within your abilities.

If a course isn't fun from any one of the 2, 3, 4, and 5 sets of tees, I don't see how it can be great.[/color]

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

More years ago than I care to remember I was in Kitzbuhel and decided to ski down the Hannenkahm. I went with a local ski instructor and having spent most of the downhill on my backside at forty or more miles an hour he opined, "Herr Huntley, you are not much of a skier but admire your pluck."

To this day I consider it one of the most enjoyable and fun times  I have ever had on the slopes. I was out of my element, I wasn't really competent to attempt the run but I did, because it was there. I think that would be golfers feel the same way about Bethpage.

Bob

[Tony_Muldoon]

Pat,

More years ago than I care to remember I was in Kitzbuhel and decided to ski down the Hannenkahm. I went with a local ski instructor and having spent most of the downhill on my backside at forty or more miles an hour he opined, "Herr Huntley, you are not much of a skier but admire your pluck."

To this day I consider it one of the most enjoyable and fun times  I have ever had on the slopes. I was out of my element, I wasn't really competent to attempt the run but I did, because it was there. I think that would be golfers feel the same way about Bethpage.

Bob

Bob you keep teasing us with these tidbits, when do we get the full autobiography?  Put me down for a signed copy.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tim,

in my opinion there are courses which are great but need your A game to be fun and others where they are both regardless of your playing form. i.e. Muirfield, Carnoustie or Valderama belong to the former and courses such as North Berwick, TOC or Prestwick to the latter.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Bob Dylan wrote that there are no bad songs.  I found that hard to believe that he truly felt that way, and wondered if it extends to golf courses, can anyone honestly feel there are no bad golf courses.  It is not so much whether the statement is true, rather can someone intimately involved in something like music or golf have those sentiments within them.

[Tim Gavrich]

Perhaps Bethpage Black was a bad example.  It just came to mind because there aren't any of the holes that conjure most directly the image of "fun" to me.  There are no short par 4s, nor any short par 3s, and I think that from the perspective of a higher handicap golfer, there aren't any real birdie opportunities (this is pure speculation because I've never played it) lengthwise.  Thus, though it is widely known as a great golf course, it may not be too much fun for the vast majority of people who play it.

Mike Strantz courses are probably the most fun I've had on a golf course.  They aren't all at the pinnacle of GCA greatness, but they sure are fun.

John Wiggett spoke to my original point.  I just think that there are some great golf courses that require more drudgery (which can lower the 'fun' factor a bit) than other great golf courses.

[ed_getka]

Tim,
   I think Bethpage Black was a good example of what you were trying to say. Patrick has a lot more game than I do, so I could see him having fun there. There aren't many, if any, courses that could be given as an example that would be universally agreed upon.

[redanman]

Fun courses you can just slap it around and FEEL GOOD.  Great scenery, lots of service, conditioning, opportunities to tip, lots of fun things.  A good cart girl can save some places!

Great make you really think, not just think that you are thinking.  They are full of substance rather than what passes for substance.

I can think of many a modern course that fits this pair of criteria.  It in no way is a bad thing, but they are just fun in the end, not great.


One more thing ...
Bethpage Black would be a lot more fun for everyone if they restored the original fairways (Width).  I think that poor old glacier bunker looks so lonely out there now with the teeny-weenie scaled little Aqua-Fresh fairway so far away.

Wednesday's weather looks good for picture taking.

[Mark Arata]

I would think you could put almost every course in Hawaii under this catagory, save the obvious ones.....

Mani Lani was a fun course to play, scenic, well maintained, but nothing that you would write home about from a GCA standpoint, same with Kauai Lagoons, some really beautiful postcard like settings, but nothing that made you think you were playing a classic golf course, just a fun place to play and view the animal menagarie as you played golf....

[Mike_Golden]

I understand the point of this question but don't see BPB as a good example unless the wrong sets of tees are selected.

Having played the course hundreds of times over the years in all sorts of conditions and with vastly different levels of skill (ranging from a 15-20 in the early 70's to a 7-8 the last time I was there about 5 years ago) there are so many great shotmaking opportunities it can't be anything but fun UNLESS you play the back tees and aren't long enough to put the tee shot in the right position.  

I probably hit the ball as far as anyone my age (59) but there's no way I'd ever march back to the Blue tees at BPB.  Play the Whites at 6500-6600 yards and thoroughly enjoy the variety of shots and clubs you have to hit to the greens.  Yes, there are some birdie opportunities (2,3,4,6,7,8,13,14,18) and even the other holes offer lots of fun-for example:
-12 is a wonderful hole from the Whites because you can hit a draw over the cross bunker and leave a 6-8 iron to the most interesting green on the course.
-11 is a great place to hit a mid to long iron and run it onto the green
-17 is as good a par 3 as you'll find
-16 is downhill yet plays longer than the uphill 15th-go figure it out!

And don't forget 5, my co-favorite hole in golf (with the Alps at NGLA).

How can the above not be fun particularly when there is only 1 hazard ( and no OB to speak of?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Huntley,

I'm sure the day was fun, but, if you attempted those runs everyday, you'd struggle, tire of it, or be in need of medical attention.

There's something to be said for the first time experience, but, on a daily basis I think our perspectives change.

That's why people get divorced  

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat.

You are absolutely right. In retrospect, I realized what a stupid thing to have done, However, I must say that as a high handicap skiier it has given me much pleasure, after having downed a couple of gin and tonics, to say, "Well, when I skied the Hannenkahm back in '08" or some such thing, just to goad my Aspen and Vail bomber friends to top it.

Bob

[Craig Van Egmond]

Does anyone know why KBM is a guest now?  Did I miss something this weekend?  Go away for a weekend and people start disappearing.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

I guess Pat is right to a degree - your abilities and PERSPECTIVE make a difference.

For example, I design many, many kick in banks on my courses, which I think are fun (hit it here to get it there) but I have heard from good players that they "allow" an average shot to end up as good as a great one.  So, they may not think its great architecture, because it doesn't mete out "justice" for those who occaionally benefit from a lucky bounce.

For most of the rest of us, its pretty good architecture and a whale of a lot of fun.

[Bruce Katona]

"Fun" could mean allowing the average golfer (18 handicap) an opportunity to make a good score (below his/her handicap)and brag about it.  It would have wide fairways with the ability  for the average player to recover from a poor shot ; advance the ball and perhaps even put it on the green; minimal bumkering and the collars and approaches grown long enough for this player to scoop the ball up on the green with the pitch shot.

A fine example of this here in NJ is Black Bear in Hardyston. It will not ever win any awards here, but the public enjoys playing there, thus it is also "fun" for the operator as it makes money.

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat.

You are absolutely right. In retrospect, I realized what a stupid thing to have done, However, I must say that as a high handicap skiier it has given me much pleasure, after having downed a couple of gin and tonics, to say, "Well, when I skied the Hannenkahm back in '08" or some such thing, just to goad my Aspen and Vail bomber friends to top it.

Bob

Of course Patrick and Robert, you both know this is EXACTLY the reason why it would be fun to play the tips at Augusta... Stupid?  Yes.  Potential for pain?  Yes.  But something to goad the bombers back home about?  Oh yes, oh so very yes as well.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Huntley,

Ah, the bragging rights, yes, they are fun.

Tom Huckaby,

I understand that element.
But, here's the problem at ANGC that Bob didn't encounter
After you tell your mates that you played ANGC from the tips,
their first question is: What'd you shoot ?
You remain silent as you see your bragging rights advantage slipping away into oblivion  

Jeff Brauer,

CBM designed a number of kick features at NGLA and they're all fun.

The best example is probably the kick mound on the Redan.
Another is the right side kick spine as you approach # 5 green.  # 16 green surrounds is another.

I think they're great features.  They provide variety, and if you understand how to use them, can benefit your play.

[Chris Kane]

I understand that element.
But, here's the problem at ANGC that Bob didn't encounter
After you tell your mates that you played ANGC from the tips,
their first question is: What'd you shoot ?
You remain silent as you see your bragging rights advantage slipping away into oblivion  

Patrick, his bragging rights wouldn't diminish at all - he's played at Augusta National Golf Club!  

What did you shoot when you played there?  I promise you, a poor score won't diminish your bragging rights in the slightest!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris Kane,

75 from The Master's tees.

However, other than the 1st tee, with a good sized gathering of golfers, pressure was not a factor.  Pleasure was.

But, that was before the golf course was lengthened to its current status which is beyond my game.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob Huntley,

Ah, the bragging rights, yes, they are fun.

Tom Huckaby,

I understand that element.
But, here's the problem at ANGC that Bob didn't encounter
After you tell your mates that you played ANGC from the tips,
their first question is: What'd you shoot ?
You remain silent as you see your bragging rights advantage slipping away into oblivion  

Wrong.
Or at least it's equivalent to Bob at the Hannenkahm... we'd accentuate the positive.  And at Augusta, all it will take is one good hole or one good shot.

Chris Kane has it correct also, though.  Just playing it at all would be room for quite enough bragging rights.  And of course I also wouldn't have to answer the real first question that would come from many of them, either.

What question is that, you ask?

"You didn't play the pussy member tees, did you?"

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Discretion is the better part of Valor.

At my last visit, my game was in no condition to meet the challenge presented from the Master's tees, and the course was rather damp, hence I played the Member's tees, had a great time and shot a respectable 75.

After the morning round, where I struggled with my hips and feet, I was told to rest in the afternoon and that I would be picked up that evening by my traveling companion..  After lunch, when the fellow I traveled with left on an afternoon business venture, I was asked if I'd like to go to the spa.  
I replied, no, I'll be heading to the 1st tee, where I teed it up and played again.

If conditions were favorable and my game up to it, I would play the Master's tees, however, I'm not so sure the latter will occur any time soon.  My golfing future may be behind me.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick, understood.  You made a wise decision and it's clear you enjoyed it, as anyone would.  Hell, this is all just grist for the discussion mill here - get me inside those gates and I don't care if I play the purple challenger tees (as if Augusta would have such things).

BUT... I still think I'd like a crack at the tips.

And I never had close to the good days you had, have, will continue to have.



 

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