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Rich Goodale (Guest)

Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« on: November 08, 2002, 07:11:46 AM »
On another thread I speculated how even the best players could be tested on a 6000 yard course (Dornoch from the Ladies Tees).  Re-reading what I wrote there gives me some other interesting (at least to me!) thoughts.

1.  In that previous post I was trying to explain how even a "small" course (and a "small" hole on that course) could cause "train wrecks"--primarily by playing with the golfer's head (i.e. "320  yards downhill down wind.  Hit it with a 3-iron yesterday and lipped out for my 3.  Birdie time.  Take the club back slowly. Ooops, I over cooked it.  Down, Down! DOWN!!! YOU BASTARD!"  I used this to show how shots could be lost to the field on such a course, just as easily as Bob's your uncle.

2.  What I wasn't thinking of at the time, however, was the other element of "smallness"--the chance for revenge!  If a great championship were played on a "small" course, not only would great players have the chance to drop unexpected shots, they would have the chance to get them back in spades later on!  These days, if you lose a shot or two on some 7500 yard monster, all you really can hope is that your opponents drop shots while you are grinding out a few more pars.  How exciting is that!  Other than inveterate Englishmen, how many people were stimulated by Faldo's 18 par final round at Muirfield for his 1st Open?  On a "small" course, birides would always be there for the taking, but if it were designed and set up properly, those birides could only be achieved at some risk.

3.  This plan would, of course, completely mitigate any desire of any Commitee on any "classic" golf course to really screw around with that course ever again. Not a bad result, I would say. ;)

2.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2002, 07:18:41 AM »
Rich;

Are you lobbying for the return of the US Open to Merion?  It sure sounds like it.

Which would you (collective you) rather watch; The US Open at Torrey Pines at 7,500 yards or the US Open at Merion at 6,700?  

I can't even believe that I'm asking this question.  

I can't even believe that the USGA isn't.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2002, 07:29:22 AM »
Rich Goodale,

How does "small" agronomically accomodate the huge amount of traffic golf courses are getting ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2002, 07:31:36 AM »
Mike

As you know, I "lobbied" for US Opens at Merion and CPC before I had played either course (and THE Open's at Rye and Dronoch)!  All Merion needs to do now is bramble over some of those ill advised back tees, turn my 5 and 9-year old girls loose for a few hours in the upholstered bunker surrounds to make them look more Kittlemanish and make sure that the course plays really fast and firm on the day!

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2002, 07:36:21 AM »
Patrick

Not sure what you mean.  I can't see how a 6500 yard course is any more or less "agronomically" affected that any 7500 yard one, all other things being equal.  I might even argue that the smaller course is much easier to maintain to the proper "maintenance meld."

Please elaborate.

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2002, 07:41:34 AM »

Quote
Which would you (collective you) rather watch; The US Open at Torrey Pines at 7,500 yards or the US Open at Merion at 6,700?  

I can't even believe that I'm asking this question.  

I can't even believe that the USGA isn't.  

Mike --

Please do golf a huge service. Send those lines -- those lines only; nothing more, to make sure they read it all, undiluted -- to every official of the USGA.

The answer is so absurdly obvious that it might just cause them to think.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2002, 07:42:42 AM »
Just being the devil's advocate here, while on the surface it's obvious I'd rather see the pros battle it out at Merion at 6700 yards, I also want to see them hit drivers.  It's equally boring to me to watch constant irons off tees as it is a parade of "pars"....

A course that allows for both daring play and low scores would be perfection.  Is that Merion?

If Rich's "small" course allows for daring drivers trying to reach holes in the 290-350 range... and enough holes over 550 to that to reach in two they kinda have to take driver off the tee... THEN we have something.

I just don't see a parade of 3irons off tees being all that interesting, no matter how many "birdies" that leads to... see, I've also decided I hate the the concept of par, so thefore birdie/bogey/eagle doesn't exist.  I want to see daring play leading to lower SCORES, whatever they may be, and a short tight course just in general isn't going to allow that for these guys, cuz you give up the "daring" part!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2002, 07:49:24 AM »
Rich;

Yes, I know you've been lobbying for some time now, and rightly so.  Keep up the fight.   ;D

Dan;

Thanks!  Now, where do I find their Email addresses?  ;)

Sometimes I say things as I mean to.  

Other times, I think I sound like the old Steve Martin line...

"Some people have a way with words, others people...er um (pause)...not have way."

Tom Huckaby;

If Merion were setup as I dream it could be, driver would certainly be an option on most holes.  It would be much wider than it is now, sans the usual US Open bowling alley setup....hell, I'd interconnect the fairways on most holes and cut most of it the same length and ideally it would be firm and fast enough to run like the wind.

The genius of the course is ANGLES, and what one must dare to get to those places from the tee.  

I'd purposefully tempt players to hit driver on most every hole.  

THAT, my friend, would be a US Open to SEE!!!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2002, 07:51:54 AM »
p.s. I'd take Rich up on his offer to have his daughters use the bunkers as their playground for the year in preparation, as well.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2002, 07:53:56 AM »
OK Mike, I'm with ya bruthah.  So what we want here is an Open at Merion set up as you say.  But continuing as D.A. (and not what that means in the Pine Valley context!), watch how the USGA boys set up Merion for the upcoming USAm... tight and rough to bejesus is gonna be the order of the day, wouldn't you think?

So I guess dare to dream... but does any of this have any chance of happening in reality?

See, all this is great, and to me seems actually kinda obvious... smallness is wonderful, especially in the Cirbanian Merion Setup.... but it seems to have as much chance of happening in championship competition as the Giants do of re-signing Dusty Baker now.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2002, 07:54:32 AM »
Is it possible that the reason the many older courses are no longer under consideration for Opens and other events has far less to do with the distance that the course plays vs. the room available for spectators, corporate entertainment, parking, etc.?  

In other words, is there any evidence that the scores on these courses (Merion, for example) are nightmarishly low when played by current pros?  Does anyone know data on this subject?

A number of years ago, there was discussion of raising the height of the basket in professional basketball to negate the dunk shot, which is clearly less skilled than the jump shot.  Someone (and I think it was Al McGuire) said that any raising of the basket whatsoever would make tall players even MORE dominant;  if the goal was to assist the shorter players, then put the basket in a hole!  This is analogous to lengthening courses to deal with the fact the length is an advantage!

Rich, I DO think small can be beautiful in a golf course, and equally challenging when compared to a longer course, primarily due to the variety of shots that can be demanded.  I would love to see evidence that would prove to me that a tight 6500 yd. gem is way easier that a 7300 yd. course.  To me, the 7300 yd. course is just a lot less fun, not necessarily harder when I tally up my score.

BTW, I play at a 6200 yd. course that is incredibly tight.  I rarely finish a round without hitting every single club in my bag.  Also, when we play team matches vs. other clubs in the area, we generally play them evenly on their tracks (which are ALL much longer and more open) and KILL them when they come to our place!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2002, 08:01:01 AM »
A.G. Crockett;

Some answers to your questions might be found in the following excerpt that Lorne Rubinstein wrote on Golfweb a few years ago.  The USGA asked Nick Price to play Merion and report back as to its suitability for a US Open as far as challenge;

"Price was there at the invitation of the USGA, and played with the association's championship committee chairman Buzz Taylor. He said later that he used every club in the bag at Merion, always a good sign.

Price also said that the course did play quite short and that it would be a terrific U.S. Open site if the USGA could accept something in the neighbourhood of six to ten-under-par winning the championship.

In this case, what's wrong with a slightly lower score winning the U.S. Open? And, after all, Taylor himself said he wouldn't mind a winning score of five or six-under-par.

At the same time we shouldn't forget that Olin Dutra won the 1934 U.S. Open with a score of thirteen-over-par 293. Yes, thirteen-over-par. Sixteen years later along came Hogan to win with his 287, seven over. And in 1971 Nicklaus and Lee Trevino tied with even par 280; Trevino's 68 in the playoff beat Nicklaus by three shots.

Did Merion stand up in the 1934, 1950, and 1971 U.S. Opens? What do you think? There's even an argument that it stood up when David Graham won in 1981 with a seven-under 273. I say this because the greens in 1981 were soft due to rain and more rain.

"If the greens in 1981 had been in the same shape throughout the championship as they had been in 1950," Desmond Tolhurst writes in Merion's history, "when a ball that stopped for a moment on a modest slope could roll right off a green, there's little doubt that no one would have broken par."

No doubt today's golfers -- at least a few, or maybe just the winner -- would break Merion's par of seventy during a U.S. Open. But that's not a given. Not at all. The USGA only needs to take a chance on the weather in June in Philadelphia and hope it is hot, windy, and dry. Heck, it's always a chancy thing to bet on the weather, but isn't that what every tournament organizer does?

"I just love Merion," Crenshaw is saying on the telephone, having played the 1971 and 1981 U.S. Opens there. "It's far more than an architectural gem. There are so many things wrapped up in it, certainly the history but also the thought and balance in the course, the different holes, the different prospects on each hole. It's a breed apart, and the finish is magnificent."

At the same time Crenshaw acknowledges that Merion might not be the test the USGA wants should the course come up damp. Congressional, where the U.S. Open was held last June, was also wet, but it played so long that Ernie Els' winning score was still only four-under-par.

Crenshaw played the first two rounds with Nicklaus, and remembers telling him that Price had played Merion the week before after the USGA asked him to examine the course as a possible U.S. Open venue. Taylor arranged for the plane that picked Price up and took him to Merion during the week of the Kemper Open near Washington.

"I told Jack that wouldn't it be great if we could have the Open back at Merion," Crenshaw recalls. "Jack said we could if the USGA just throttled the ball back about six percent (so that Merion's shortness would not be the critical factor).

At the same time he said, 'Is this what it's going to come to in the future?' We both agreed that while Congressional was very long already it was in effect playing to about 7,400 yards with the soft conditions."

But there isn't much room to stretch Merion's yardage.

As Crenshaw notes, one of its charms is that every inch is already used so intelligently. About all that could be done, after introducing U.S. Open rough and narrow fairways, would be to get the greens hard and fast. But there's a problem here in that many of Merion's greens have so much contour that they would be unfair if they were made super-fast and firm.
Last June 18th, a tournament called the Founders Cup was held at Merion for amateur golfers. It was part of a seventy-two hole event to honour the four founding clubs of the Philadelphia Golf Association. Merion is one of those clubs, and the event there was called "A Celebration of American Golf." Needless to say, it was a success.

The U.S. Open would obviously be a great success in so many ways if it were to return to Merion, a course that is part of the fabric of American golfing life. Merion is one of those courses. A fifth U.S. Open there would be cause for A Celebration of American Golf all right.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2002, 08:09:00 AM »
The key sentence in all of that is:

""I told Jack that wouldn't it be great if we could have the Open back at Merion," Crenshaw recalls. "Jack said we could if the USGA just throttled the ball back about six percent (so that Merion's shortness would not be the critical factor). "

Again, it's not all that much fun being D.A., but what chance is there the ball will be throttled back 6%?

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2002, 08:09:52 AM »
Tom

You are right about requiring driver.  One of the htings that intrigued me about the big boys playing the ladies tees at Dornoch is that there is no hole that would require them to NOT hit driver, except those that might be driveable by a msaller club!  3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18 will all give benefit to the extra length of the driver, in any wind, with some risk of course!

Mike

You are right about Merion.  What a blast that would be to play without trees and without rough lines!  However, as AG implies and others have said previously, the US Open and other majors are not only about golf, they are about money and prestige and numbers of spectators and hoopla and a lot of things I don't want to say right now ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2002, 08:14:31 AM »
Right on brother Richard.  It works at Dornoch most definitely - driver would be in play all day.  But then again, the R&A with probably only the one Carnoustian exception has always been more enlightened in this respect anyway.

The issue is here in the US.  I don't see them allowing Cirba to do the setup, as much as we would love it!  The USAm will be VERY interesting...

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2002, 08:21:52 AM »
I don't see any reason Merion couldn't be setup so that players would be tempted to hit driver on 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, (7,8,10 as even gambling to reach the green), 12, 14, 15, 16, & 18.

Would they have to hit driver?  Probably only on 3-5 holes.

Should they be tempted to hit driver?  

Therein lies the key to the appropriate setup, in my opinion.

Tom Huckaby; Why wouldn't they select me to setup the course?  ;)  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2002, 08:24:46 AM »
I'd vote for you, that's for sure, Mike!   ;D

So ok, let's make this happen.  It all makes so much sense... which just about guarantees that it WON'T happen!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2002, 10:17:43 AM »
If Merion were to expand their fairways back out and hold an Open, the set-up of the course, both maintenance and weather-wise would be extremely central, probably as central to the tournament as any Open course ever!

If they used wide fairways (really don't see the USGA going for that though) and they were fast the absolute key to controlling scoring (if that's what they're concerned about) would be both the speed of the greens but far more so the firmness of them. The necessary and proper green firmness I think is about the whole deal for an Open at Merion! Without firm green surfaces at Merion tour pros today could absolutely score scary low! If they could throw sticking darts at those greens and pins and make them hold it could be a birdiefest for many of them.

But if the course was set up wide and fast and the greens were firm enough where the aerial shot was relatively uncontrollable (no sticking or sucking back) ALL the architecture of Merion would come back into play bigtime and that would very much mean tee to the green! You want to talk about the "angles" of Merion they'd all be back in the equation bigtime but ONLY if those green surfaces were firm enough! If the greens aren't firm enough (if they're very receptive to the aerial shot) the "angles" of Merion are virtually meaningless to the touring pro. And this is a direct statement from Nick Faldo (not a bad course manager in Major championships) about Merion. And by the way, he doesn't really think the course is too short with a particular setup and he thinks total card yardage at Merion is somewhat misleading.

With the fairways wide and very firm too, unfortunately the thing Merion would never be able to really do is put the driver back in the tour pros hands--at least nothing like Mike Cirba lists above. Basically a long tour pro would probably never really consider using driver at all anywhere other than maybe 2, but probably 4, 5, 6 and 18.

Basically they just really don't need the distance at Merion, UNLESS the green surfaces were firm enough that the overriding consideration was to get the most lofted iron in their hands and for the overriding reason of creating a bit more spin and control on those firm greens.

That's why the green surface firmness is the complete key to Merion for today's tour pros in an Open, in my opinion. If you don't have that they could probably care less what they hit off the tee becasue they could fly whatever they wanted to at those greens and flags!

Another thing I'd do for the Open at Merion is set up the pin positions hard everywhere! Why not? What's the big deal about this 6-6-6 stuff of easy, medium and hard. Give them straight hard everywhere if these guys think they're so good. Almost every green at the speed they'd have for the Open has at least two really hard positions anyway!

But then if it did rain and the course got soft everywhere it would be an entirely different deal with a course like Merion! The course would be defenseless bigtime!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2002, 10:22:26 AM »
Tom

Great post.  But.......

What's wrong with "birdiefests."  Won''t the best player over the 4 days still win?

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2002, 10:25:30 AM »
There's nothing at all wrong with birdiefests.  Just call them "twofests" or "threefests" and I think everyone's happy!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2002, 11:19:29 AM »
Rich:

I don't really have a problem with birdiefests although clearly the USGA does at their Opens and that's not going to change anytime in the next couple of hundred years, in my opinion.

But I don't think Merion needs to set-up for a birdiefest when they can set up (weather providing) to provide SO MUCH MORE OF AN INTERESTING TEST for the tour players than that!

A set-up like one of the last Hugh Wilson tournaments (except with wider fairways) would be an interesting US Open test (again weather providing).

But anything more than that set-up would be over the top and unfair to Merion, the Open and the players too in my opinon. The course doesn't need to do that. Maybe, the word unfair isn't the correct one. What I mean is, in my opinion, the old girl (Merion) still has the stuff to test today's top players but she'll test them in a different way than they're normally used to--even in a US Open--obviously if they widen the course to what it once was designed to be!

Shot making, angles, positioning, aggression and conservatism and course management will be at a real premium again! All the things most of us love about classic/strategic golf! The tour pros might even have to reanalyze the balls they use that week!!

But as ideal as I think it could be with that "ideal" setup, they will never be able to hold those guys who are going to be near the top or win at par. They will be under par!

But so what? What I think we could see with that ideal set-up at Merion is some really fascinating golf! Approaching the greens will be a shot maker's delight if they're firm enough!

I really believe the course has still got what it takes that way and can still make the tour pros show us what they've got that's different from what we see most every week! I think at its very best the smart ones might even prep for it with some interesting shot inventory practice. It could even be an American version of what Wood's had ready for TOC when he won in 2000. Unfortunately the wind never blew but apparently he had a game plan and some really interesting shots ready that he never had to use!

And after that they can go back to their booming drives and dart throwing approaches on the standard setups!

But again, the green surface firmness is the real key to me at Merion. The course has just got to give them a set up where many of their darts just won't stick! So they'll be forced much of the time to sneak up on her greens and pins in other ways, like real variety shot makers used to do!

It's too bad Trevino isn't still in his prime! This could be something that would be perfect for that kind of shotmaker! Maybe even Corey will try biting and scratching his little ass onto the first page for a while!

Can you imagine the photo of Wood's on Sunday leaning on his 2 iron staring down the 11th fairway with the Jones Grand Slam plaque next to him as he contemplates his charge on the final seven holes from a shot or so back to nab the second leg of the Grand Slam?

How could the USGA not consider such a neat scenario? But they've got to go there first!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2002, 11:24:18 AM »
Damn it seems so simple.  Eliminate the concept of par and this all becomes easy.  Of course the bluecoats will still cry as the record 272 (or whatever it is) goes by the wayside, but who cares?  This Cirbanian/Goodalian/Paulian set up at Merion would produce one of the great Opens of all time in terms of shotmaking... and perhaps lead to even bigger and better things for golf in general...

The clarity and simplicity of this is scary.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2002, 11:59:42 AM »
Simplicity and clarity indeed!

"Where have you gone Ardmore's Merion as Far Hills turns its lonely eyes to you..." Da Da dee dee da do da dee dee, da da do da dee dee dee dee dee.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2002, 12:11:33 PM »
Tom Paul;

All of the dogs out here in Wynnewood and Ardmore are howling.

Will you cut that out?!   ::)  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Is Small perhaps Beautiful?
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2002, 02:14:21 PM »
What a great thread--it's civil, speculative, and totally interesting on "what if,' and great memory Mike to bring up the piece from Lorne from about five years ago. (Hard to believe, but I think it was about that long--GASP! Does time fly by or what?!?!?)

In fact, we once has a topic talking about how they (the USGA) could do Merion again. I seem to remember we were talkng about them closing down Ardmore Ave, etc. set-up of the course, how Tiger would play #10. All impressive and deserving discussions and scenarios.

All for just four days.

I'm in complete agreement or acknowledgement with Jack to roll back the ball--a line he gave us during the Buzz administration. But, look how many of the stalwart names sort of disappeared as soon as Buzz took the heat for some pretty radical changes in hopes of wrestling all of the issues regarding length and equipment. Where are they now? And even further, look what happend to Buzz!

But, do we really want to see Merion become a fiasco of sorts because of all of the intangibles? I don't--In fact it is a much better place then that. So is Dornoch I would imagine. Hell, lets throw Hoylake into the pot!

You see, I wish that the members at Merion would wake-up and see that they have/had a course that is bigger and better then any prestigious golf tournament or governing body in the game, and that, frankly, is ruining the existence of classic golf courses throughout the world. Maybe I'm taking a sort of dinosaurs view of things, but I think that Merion IS a very special place with a VERY special history, and that is ultimately the fight of it all--the CHANGE that didn't need to take place just because the inability to properly control the equipment. I also think that this is a perect example of what could in fact be happening at the National Golf Links Of America, which may be worse.

Rich, you have so brilliantly put it, "Small Perhaps Beautiful" (could one describe Merion any better?) yet, not capable of being able to handle the press, public or professionals that such an event as the US Open is famed for entertaining.

All for just four days of intense competition that strokes the backs of those who think fame has to come with a price tag of celebrity.

Merion is not perfect, and that is what makes it so PERFECT! (in regards to never having anyone or any huge event there that doesn't understand what perfect golf architecture is all about.) Who cares about any ranking/Who cares if it ever sees the light of day from the USGA ever again. (even while remembering a certain amateur event that will take place there in the next few years)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »