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Scott Witter

Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« on: May 17, 2006, 03:50:51 PM »
From what I have seen in construction and finished photos on this site and on other web sites, and I will qualify this by saying that I have not physically been to any of the newer golf courses discussed here so often, that there seem to be extensive and sophisticated irrigation systems in place for grow in and for long term maintenance.

In addition, I remember some of the architects here discussing this fact regarding their new designs.  So, being familiar with these systems, their installation costs and the slick pump stations to run them, the hand-held computers, or even satelight controllers, how can those in the "know" state that their construction costs on sand site are inexpensive?  And furthermore, we need to focus on sandy sites for future development in order to keep the costs affordable.  What??  Even if you don't move hardly any earth these irrigation systems can run a tab quickly.

Comments?

Scott Witter

Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2006, 06:23:21 PM »
Hey, maybe I should have said...WIE CREATES AFFORDABLE GOLF!  then I would have some real intelligent replies uh? ;)

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 06:51:32 PM »
Scott buddy....maybe I've been drinking [yes] and/or you've been drinking too.........but I'm having a hard time knowing how to properly answer your question :).

maybe you could simplify them for the impaired, [or challenged]...[being me]......
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 06:52:05 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Scott Witter

Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2006, 07:48:21 PM »
Okay Paul,

For you, me and the other challenged individuals, even though I really only expected the architect's to comment anyway...

We have been talking about the affordable slant to golf development right, you with me... and the importance to get sandy sites with wonderful topo right, still with me...good, but even if you are one of the blessed architects with this program, the elaborate irrigation systems I have read about and heard about for some time now are expensive, right?  Hell, just a basic double row with say 800 heads stand-alone controllers 16' deep well wet, 20" intake line, pump station to push approx 1200 gpm will costs you $750,000 in the ground.

However, it seems at least, that the current systems going in on the newer courses in sand are much more involved and extensive in coverage, slick computers, the bells and whistles etc.,  So I am asking, are these systems not EXPENSIVE...in the neighborhood of around 1mill -1.5 mill?  and if so, how is that affordable when I know there are many other components required to complete these projects?

Or, maybe I am drinking, how did you know Paul 8) and this is only done on these high profile jobs?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2006, 08:29:30 PM »
Scott:

I guess it depends on your definition of "affordable" construction, but we've done four or five courses on sand where the total construction budget was $2.5 million or less, and the irrigation system was a shade more than half of that amount.

Yes, you could build the course for even less without so much irrigation, but in some places (windy and sandy) that's not too wise, you need all the coverage you can get.

Now, on a couple of recent projects we've done there was another $500,000 of irrigation that I thought was totally unnecessary to the golf, but those weren't golf-only projects and I suspect the clients bought off on the extra sprinkler heads for non-golf reasons.  I don't know if they think it's worth it in hindsight or not.

Steve_Roths

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2006, 08:47:57 PM »
What would be the construction cost for a course like Garden City if it was built today.  Forgetting land costs.  Also, would you need all the irrigation systems for a course like this?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2006, 09:09:29 PM »
Scott ...I'm with Tom..... and of late I've just begun to react to the fact that the biggest increases I have seen in construction costs in the past 10 years have been in irrigation and golf maintenance costs.....and I don't think there is sufficient justification for either...and that all this is being fueled by a very eager sales and marketing approach aimed at all the responsible people in charge.

I'm thinking about going backward but I'm not sure about the easiest way to turn around.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 09:10:29 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Scott Witter

Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2006, 09:11:20 PM »
Tom:

Thanks and I half expected you would be the first to comment since it was your past comments I was thinking of in regards to affordable.

Without going into my definition of affordable, it is not really needed since your number of 2.5M and my thoughts match...I consider that quite affordable if it in fact applies to some of your recent projects and for the moment I assume it does.  But I have to ask, aside from the say 1.3M in irrigation, you mean to say that you are completing projects such as your recent ones in the east and west for only an additional 1-1.2M??  This covers; prep work, shaping, some earth moving (but of course minimal) materials, drainage, seeding, O&P, mobilization, insurances etc., you know...?

Crap, I gotta find me a nice plot of sand somewhere :D


Scott Witter

Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2006, 09:16:52 PM »
Paul:

Oh wait a minute, are you one of those blessed architects too who are working in a sand box year in and year out?   Hey, you should try adding a little water to your sand and dribble it out through your fingers it shapes up real nice and I'll bet the golfers would love those...!

I would agree with you about irrigation and maintenance costs assuming that is, that all other elements are equal and you are working with a great site with ideal topo and plenty of natural holes (please don't ask me about natural holes) and 60 feet deep sand.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2006, 10:09:17 PM »
What would be the construction cost for a course like Garden City if it was built today.  Forgetting land costs.  Also, would you need all the irrigation systems for a course like this?

Steve,

The need for irrigation isn't necessarily a factor of design style. Its a function of how long an owner is willing to have his course at less than its best.  The old rule of a course taking ten years to mature is now taboo.  It needs to be nearly perfect at opening.  If you want it to grow in, you need to have irrigation.  Roughs, fairways, whatever.

My gripe on irrigation is the trend towards being able to water every sq. in. every night, and i believe that drives costs up.  If we could keep coverage everywhere, but go back to every other night watering capacity, I believe we could save lots on irrigation.  Pump stations might be 1800 GPM instead of 3600 GPM, and pipe sizes would return to 12" max, rather than 16" pipes coming out of the pump station, etc.  I figure the control sophistication ought to stay, since labor will do nothing but go up.

Rant over. Point inelegantly made. Go about your business......

Scott,

You are right in that only a few costs go down in sand, and we can't ignore the permit and land costs, etc. that make up so much of a golf course budget.  Drainage might not even to down, since you might add catch basins to minimize the tendency of sand to erode. If not catch basins, then certainly lots of erosion netting.

I feel your pain.  Not even my new course named Sand Creek Station has sand soils......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2006, 04:28:36 PM »
we've done four or five courses on sand where the total construction budget was $2.5 million or less, and the irrigation system was a shade more than half of that amount.
Tom,

do I understand correctly you built several courses on sand for $2.5 million PLUS $1.2 milion for irigation, or was the irigation cost already included in the $ 2.5 million?

Scott Witter

Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2006, 07:49:34 PM »
Frank:

I believe Tom meant that the irrigation was included in the 2.5M, but if not, that would explain a lot.

Jeff:

I never considered that the land costs or permitting were in the budgets that Tom is speaking of and for me my original post and reference was essentially tied to construction dollars only.  Your point is still well taken BTW and many forget or conveniently overlook those costs and many others, when they talk about "budgets" to build a course.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2006, 11:50:20 AM »
Our work on 100% sand dunes in Peñasco, Mexico (19-holes) came in at $7 million. Subtract $2 million in lagoon/water storage, $2.5 million in irrigation, $300,000 maintenance building and another $500,000 in cart path work...

= $1.7 million in golf shaping, prep and grassing.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2006, 12:04:26 PM »
As I understood Tom's numbers, the irrigation was added on top of the 2.5. I could be wrong....

The price of irrigation materials has gone up 30 percent in just the last year. Mostly due to the increase in oil prices, isn't it.?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2006, 12:18:00 PM »
Irrigation has increased, also, due to transportation costs and a shortage of resins caused by all sorts of things: Iraq, Katrina and a lack of refineries. You can add to that a resurgence of golf building activity and the demise of several smaller contractors. Bottomline: There are not as many qualified irrigation contractors out there. At a recent pre-bid we got the feeling that two of our bidders did not want the work — they threw numbers to our client to be "polite" but the figures were well about 50% more that anyone expected.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Troy Alderson

Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2006, 02:02:11 AM »
My gripe on irrigation is the trend towards being able to water every sq. in. every night, and i believe that drives costs up.  If we could keep coverage everywhere, but go back to every other night watering capacity, I believe we could save lots on irrigation.  Pump stations might be 1800 GPM instead of 3600 GPM, and pipe sizes would return to 12" max, rather than 16" pipes coming out of the pump station, etc.  I figure the control sophistication ought to stay, since labor will do nothing but go up.



Jeff,

I believe your logic about irrigation systems is slightly flawed.  What you propose would not provide enough water to the turf quick enough.  The irrigation system should be designed for the worst case scenario for weather and be able to cover the whole golf course in around 6 hours.  To do that, the pump station must be at least 2500 gpm and 16 inch piping for the main lines.  By designing the system this way with larger pump station and piping the water can be applied deeply and infrequently.  With the system you shared, the water would have to be applied daily and shallow to cover the whole golf course in one night.  But, you could apply the water on part of the golf course deeply one night and another part of the golf course the next night.  That may lead to inconsistencies in conditions.

The one area the golf course should not skimp is the irrigation system.  Design the system for the worst case of weather for the area you are in.  The idea is to apply enough water for the turf for the next few days, deeply and infrequently.

Troy

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2006, 09:28:08 AM »
Troy — While I agree...I also have a challenge to you:

How do you explain the irrigation care that courses received during the 1960s? When many were watered with single row systems and no pump station; just town pressure traveling down a single pipe which was managed by a night waterman who attached heads one after another?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2006, 09:53:59 AM »
Troy,

I would love to know the background that spawns your answer.

While I can agree with your premise, I think lesser systems (not coverage but GPM) would encourage deeper, infrequent watering, because the super would HAVE to only water part of the course.  What I have found is that those 2500 (and higher) GPM systems allow the super to use it every night for overwatering, rather than save it up for deep, infrequent watering.  There are as many consequences to overwatering (disease, environmental criticisms, and even poa invasion at a quicker rate) as there are to underwatering, although I can't recall a case of direct turf death from overwatering.....

With a lesser system, why can't we, as Forrest suggests, go back to a 1960's watering schedule of watering deeply every other night to half the course each?  Even every other night is not exactly "infrequent." I know committed supers who water every fourth night with no ill effects.  And for most courses, (up to 99.5%) and golfers, a bit of difference from one fw to the next would not be noticeable.

I specifically disagree with designing for the "worst case scenario" of a 100 degree day in six hours. If (depending on climate, as I am thinking about the midwest, not the desert) you have a few days a year where it could take up to 10-12 hours to water the course, you would lose some play, but the initial cost would be far less.  If you saved $250K in pump station and pipe costs, and were paying $20K annually in interest on that, and were getting an average of $50 per player then you would have to lose 4000 rounds, or twenty full days (or more likely 40 half days) of play to break even.   In most areas, there just aren't that many days of weather causing above the normal need for irrigation.

That is how I justify using less than the top of the line systems you propose. Somehow, as Forrest notes, we made it through until the 1990's without watering courses in six hours every night, and I propose that we could do that again.

Again, please realize that my ideas are for affordable courses, not Trump type extravaganzas where the owner would never settle for less than the best.  It is also where climate and soils allow. However, this is an affordable golf thread.  One way to make courses more affordable is for supers, gca's, and irrigation designers to tell the owner that there are possible consequences (and work arounds) to not having an overkill irrigation system, (and in the supers case, to please not fire him for a drought) but that if he/she is willing to live with those, then we don't need to spend hundreds of thousands to cover the behind of either the irrigation designer or super.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 10:09:13 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Troy Alderson

Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2006, 08:22:54 PM »
Jeff and Forrest,

First, I am learning from this discussion.  Second, both of you make great points that support your idea and I do agree with you.  Third, I believe that traditional ways are the best and only applying enough water to the turf for it to make it through the day.  Now about the topic.

Turf is best watered starting at daybreak.  Scott Anderson is a great example of watering at daybreak ahead of the golfers.  I wish I had the system capable of doing that, single row, big heads, remote control, and let the rest go dormant.  Maybe watering every few days will provide consistent conditions on the fairways/tees/roughs without the golfers noticing any difference.  But, if the superintendent could water the whole golf course in one night after the sun goes down, and hold off until the turf starts to turn blue, then the conditions would remain the same throughout the week.  I would rather water the whole golf course in one night if the irrigation system is capable, deeply and infrequently.  Then water only part of the golf course one night and so on.  At my golf course, I am only able to water 1/4 inch per night to cover the whole golf course.  I am not in a position to water deeply and infrequently with the system because of the potential loss of turf until the tough turf takes over.  I have set up a program to accomplish deep and infrequent but I require an income, maybe next year I will give it a shot.

Scott Anderson has a system capable of watering the whole golf course in about 4 hours, starting at daybreak.  But his membership understands dormant turf and accepts it, very unusual in America.

With state of the art systems, superintendents can have an easier time watering deeply and infrequently without the golfers seeing the difference.  I am speaking only from my experience at the golf course I am at and each golf course is different and requires different watering programs.  I hope that I can learn from this discussion and correct my thinking if needed.  I am for making golf less expensive to build and play and am up for suggestions.  I just do not want to see the job made harder for us superintendents.

Troy

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2006, 07:52:27 AM »
Troy,

There is nothing wrong with your logic.  That sounds like a perfect system, and some owners would demand nothing less.

Its just that my age might be showing, and Forrest and I can recall some pretty nice golf courses that didn't have that many bells and whistles to get it absolutely perfect.  Also, I am pretty sure that 50-80% of supers aren't as lucky as Scott with the perfect system.

But looked at another, less costly way, in an area like Philly, where by law they limit water to 17Mil gallons a year, does it make sense to design an irrigation system of 2500GPM (150,000  GPH and 600,000 Gals in your 4 hour water window and 1,200,000 in a more standard 8 hour window) meaning you can deliver almost 10% of your annual water allotment in a night?

When I started designign golf courses, irrigation took 20-25% of the budget. It now takes 33-40%.  When we need to cut costs to create affordable golf, we need to look at the big ticket items and none is bigger than irrigation, leading to my thoughts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Larry_Rodgers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2006, 09:09:44 AM »
Jeff & Forrest

The costs are not all related to PVC and the raw materials that go into making the pipe. The latest culprit is copper wire, I am including a link that you may want to save that tracks copper. I have a report from UBS AG that says the world consumption of copper will be 200,000 tons short of the 17.8 million tons buyers need. This may be the year we seriously consider Hydraulic tubing systems over electrict valve-in-head. Or another option is a 2-wire system similar to what the rest of the world has accepted and is slowly catching on in the USA.

http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/copper_historical_large.html

Copper is only the latest commodity the push the costs up, unskilled labor, transportation of materials and transportation (fule charges) of the workforce to the jobsite are all contributing to the cost of the irrigation systems today.

I was out to Texas Tech 2 weeks ago and the deep and infrequent irrigation practices are producing roots in the entire greens profile 4 years after planting. Eric Johnson does understand what healthy roots can do to produce quality turfgrass.

 

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2006, 11:03:38 AM »
Troy — "Turf is best watered starting at daybreak"...

I am not sure you can state that unconditionally. It depends more on climate, ground and air temperature, humidity, turf needs and a host of other factors.

One needs to keep in mind that artificial irrigation is a supplement to natural precipitation...and nature knows no such thing as a set schedule.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2006, 11:44:39 AM »
I don't doubt that daybreak is best.  Theoretically it minimizes disease, since early morning warmth dissapates excess moisture, but before it gets to hot to evaporate signifgantly.

However, golf courses have watered at night so long to avoid play, that I don't know if there is any real world cases out there to prove that the theory makes a signifgant cost savings of chemicals in the real world.

Again showing my age, but I like superintendents who travel the course and determine irrigation need by feel as much as by reading the computer.  I worry that every bell and whistle available now is really cost effective, esp. if it keeps the super off the course!  As Larry says, much of the cost pressures are outside the realm of what we can control, but if the total construction budget stays static because golf economics are down, then we have to look at taking out something from our costs.

Its funny, but there was a time in my early career when I justified automatic irrigation vs. quick couplers by demonstrating the labor savings paying back the additional cost over just a few years.  Now I am looking at the possible lack of payback on some other facets of irrigation, like every night watering capability, etc.

And I worry more that the next generation of supers (or a portion of them) won't think they can grow grass without all of those bells and whistles, when the past and current crop almost always does more with less.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2006, 02:01:11 PM »
There are certain areas in the world where it is not possible to water the course wall to wall due to environmental restrictions i.e. just tees and greens. Due to this the cost of construction is much lower. I suspect we will start to see a total ban on irrigation in some places soon if this is not already the case.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2006, 03:17:40 PM »
And, in the opposite case, communities that insist on significant acreage planted with turf — as this acreage of turf (e.g., golf courses being one such venue) represents, in many instances, the only viable and safe method of disposing of treated effluent (sewage) that is generated by large population areas.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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