[Paul_Turner]

Thanks to Brian Ewen for these beautiful pics of Gleneagles Queens.

Unlike the Kings course, Alister Mackenzie liked the Queens; probably because he didn't bid on the project and lose?  His criticism of the Kings was that it was designed "by committee"; too many cooks... Whereas he liked the Queens because it was designed by one man: CK Hutchison.  I'd like to know more about this chap, he built some fine courses often in partnership with Guy Campbell and SV Hotchkin.  A partnership that perhaps doesn't get its due recognition.


The 4th

The 6th

The 12th

The 12th green

The 14th green

The 14th from 5th tee

The 15th

The 17th

The 17th green


I have some more pics from Jeroen which I can post if wanted.

[ian]

I can't forgive myself for staying there and playing the Kings and not touring the Queens. The one thing that strikes me from the photos is how much they look alike.

I did play 11 rounds on the pitch and putt course though. If you have a picture of that, I really could use it.

Keep the courses coming Paul, this is one of my favourite things on the site.

[Brian_Ewen]

Thank you Paul for allowing me to share these photos with the group . I enjoyed Jeroens photos of the Kings course that you also posted , and being a fan of the Queens I wanted to address the balance .

Paul I am puzzled as I have always thought the Queens was a James Braid designed course  , though I knew that it had been re-modelled by James Alexander in the 1950's . Certainly some of the greenside bunkering has a Braid look about them ? .

If you are ever at Gleneagles and only have the time to play one course I would recommend the Queens over the Kings . I am one that agrees with Dr MacKenzie that the Kings has too many holes where you see more of the green from the tee , than you do from the fairway.

The Queens doesnt have the incredible views of the Kings (though the photos show they are not far behind ) but the course has a more compact feel to it , a lovely routing , and at less than 6700 yards and a par of 68 , it is playable and enjoyable for a golfer of my standard .

One negative point , If these wetter summers in Scotland are here for good , Gleneagles must do something about the drainage on the course . This will be third time I have played at Gleneagles over the last couple of years , and each time the fairways have been very wet and boggy .

When we played last week , Gleneagles were running a speacial deal for October of £31 a round , at this price I consider the Queens a bargain .

[Paul_Turner]

Brian

I was going by what Mackenzie wrote in "The Spirit of St Andrews", looking at the architecture bible by Cornish and Whitten, both Braid and Hutchison are credited for both Kings and Queens, so who knows?  C&W is sometimes wrong, as they can only go by what the club tells them.  Perhaps I might dig something up in my research?

I agree that both courses look similar, both in style and interest: some spectacular holes!

Not sure what's up with a couple of those pics above???

[Tyler Kearns]

Paul,
       Great pictures, I concur with Ian, it's one of the best features of GCA, so please, feel free to post more images. Amongst many other things, architecture is a visual art; therefore, more pictures equals better education.

Tyler Kearns

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
Wonderful pictures. The use of the natural features of the site is striking. I'm with you in wanting to know more about Hutchison. Darwin believed Hutchison never got his proper due at Gleneagles, or his proper due as an architect. He attributed it to the fact he had a quiet and effacing personality, and unfortunately because he didn't design that many courses.

I know he was a Scot educated at Eton. A very fine amateur, he lost in the finals of the British Am when up one with two to play at Muirfield (he hailed from Lothian). He was engaged to marry Joyce Wethered - don't what happened there. He was a POW during WWI and built a golf course in the stallag. He and Campbell were long time partners.

[allysmith]

Brian,

Excellent photographs. Now Cruikie is a world wide golfer. Your views on the Queens are to be applauded. I have played the Kings and Queens about 6 times each and fully agree that the challenge of the queens out strips the Kings by quite a way.

Unfortunately the technical challenges of both the Kings and Queens do not match those of the PGA Centenary and so they were not chosen for the 2014 Ryder Cup. Even a suitable composite course could not be put together.

I guess the allure and charm should remain with us amateurs as the Kings and Queens have succumbed to the ravages of time.

[Tommy_Naccarato (Guest)]

It is interesting to see this bunker maintenance and practices. for those of you that don't know, Gleneagles is under the watchful guise of David Kidd's father who I believe is superintendent there.

The bunkers DO in fact have that Bandon Dunes look to them.

[Brian_Ewen]

Paul
Having a quick look through books and websites , several times Major CK Hutchinson is listed as Braid's assistant on the Gleneagles project .

The courses were built between 1914 and 1919 , James Braid would have still been playing golf in these years, so maybe Major Hutchinson should be given more credit for the design , though using the C&W bible , Braid designed very few courses during this period .

A couple of facts I found interesting while looking through these books :

The Queen's course was intended as a ladies' course , which explains its shortness.

Many people think the Hotel / Courses are named after the bird but it is actually an anglicisation of the Gaelic glen eaglais, the glen of the church.

[Simon Barrington]

Paul
Having a quick look through books and websites , several times Major CK Hutchinson is listed as Braid's assistant on the Gleneagles project
The courses were built between 1914 and 1919 , James Braid would have still been playing golf in these years, so maybe Major Hutchinson should be given more credit for the design , though using the C&W bible , Braid designed very few courses during this period .

Hi Brian,

Please Note: This is a general, not personal response...

The assumption (& other's assertion previously) are the exact opposite of the truth.
This is a myth that has run for some time now, you are far from alone in the misconception.

This is understandable as "The Good Doctor" threw considerable shade on Braid (but couldn't even bring himself to do so by name, only by omission) in 'The Spirit of St. Andrews'.
This was in commercial frustration as he had seen the property first but failed to secure what was a golden opportunity, one that Braid & CK Hutchison (as assistant on his first ever project having been recommended to Braid & Gleneagles by HS Colt) grabbed with both hands.

Design of both the 18 Hole Kings and 9 Hole Queens started in 1913. The Queens was not solely CKH.

Where another source of confusion lies is that CKH did produce really excellent visual and topographical maps for all the holes, which were then replicated in the various Gleneagles Hotel Guides. That is not the same as the hole designs being his, as Braid used numerous draftsmen & map makers over the years on his courses, but he was very detailed and specific in what he wanted represented and built (as Stutt re-affirmed later)

Contrary to the assertion Braid was beginning the winding down of his competitive golf at that time, having won his last of Five Opens in 1910 and periodically struggled with his old eye injury (legacy of lime in his eyes when working as a joiner) from 1911 onwards.

BTW - He had started his design career back in 1896 at Romford, when Pro & Greenkeeper, had completed many original projects (and remodels) prior to Gleneagles, having written "Advanced Golf" in 1907 detailing his principles.

The lack of projects was solely due to The Great War, while others travelled to the US (Colt, Park etc.) The Triumvirate stayed here.
(As well as James Braid's sea sickness stopping him being well-documented, even if he had wanted to travel across the pond)

Col. CK Hutchison was called up and bravely went into active service between 1914 and 1918/9 (even designing a rudimentary course inside a POW camp) so it was Braid who oversaw the numerous modifications during construction, and not (as Dr. Mackenzie suggested) the other way around.

BTW - Braid himself did volunteer (as I believe his great friend JHT also did) although the Triumvirate were all over the age for a call up, so the authorities were very delighted that the three, plus Sandy Herd, played numerous charity games across the length and breadth of the country throughout the War for various War Charities.

Dr Mackenzie did provide a later local interview relating to the Queens course with a far more positive slant (thanks to Neil Crafter who shared this with me) but again this was a commercial imperative by him as the opportunity existed to extend the 9 to 18, which he alluded to, given the roaring success the courses were having. Dr Mackenzie was ahead of his time, consummate at self-promotion.

The job of course remained with Braid & CKH, why change given the plaudits and quality of work already there.
Braid returned numerous times to tweak the routing of both courses throughout the 1920's.

CKH was clearly talented and he was mentored very well by Braid, and Braid was even called in by CKH to assist him on the remodelling of Turnberry's Ailsa course (BTW Braid's remodel of the No.2 Course - later Arran - was lauded widely prior to WWII and the course was more often used than the Ailsa!).

We can clearly see Braid's style and influence at both Tadmarton Heath and Kington, CKH was a very quick student and talented golfer in his own right and that should be celebrated.

But the diminishing (due to the commercial frustrations expressed in print by another highly competitive genius) of James Braid's contribution to what is rightly regarded as some of his very best design work is incorrect, and really ought not to persist.

In a modern context, do we talk Tom Doak's contribution to great projects such as Pacific Dunes and The Lido (redux) down, due to Brian Schneider's current/future success?

NO, nor should we, as they are both due our praise and respect...

Cheers

[Niall C]

I am admittedly no expert on Gleneagles but I did do a bit of research in the national archives as part of the MacKenzie Timeline project. The archives hold a certain amount of material such as old letters books and I think from memory minute books. In the Spirit of St Andrews, MacKenzie had claimed that he was the first gca to look at Gleneagles and I was trying to find evidence of him being there. Sadly I don’t have notes to hand so the following is based on memory.
 
I found no evidence of anyone other than Braid being considered for the role of gca and indeed it was clear that he was no. 1 choice right from the outset. I don’t think I’d ever heard of Colt being approached or that he’d recommended Hutchison.
 
However, Hutchison was directly employed by the railway/hotel company as Director of Golf so it would make sense that Colt might have been first choice for that role given his role at Sunningdale. By that the time Hutchison (c.1912/13 ?) had left the Coldstream Guards and no doubt was looking for opportunities and being known to Colt and Colt not being interested in the role himself, it seems entirely plausible that Colt put his name forward. I’d be interested to hear Adam’s thoughts on any Colt involvement.
 
Whatever the truth of that, I don’t think CKH would have been giving Braid any advice on the design of the course and instead I think his input would be more as a link to the Board as well as passing updates to Braid on construction and then passing on any instruction from Braid to the contractors. All conjecture on my part.
 
As we do know WWI came along and CKH signed up for the army. I can’t quite recollect whether he resigned his role at Gleneagles or whether it was just put in abeyance but I’m pretty sure it was all amicable. Given he was doing his patriotic duty and there was a genuine belief at that time that it would all be over quite quickly I suspect there was an agreement that the job would be waiting for him when he came back. And it appears that is what happened.
 
In the interim, while CKH was largely sitting in a POW camp at the Keisers pleasure, the 18 hole King’s course and the 9 hole Queen’s were largely finished. Given the scale and prestige of the overall project, I’d imagine that Braid paid more than a few visits during that period. It seems clear to me therefore that those finished courses were all Braid.
 
Where it gets interesting is in that the Queen’s course was extended to 18 holes in late 1921 and early 1922 due to the popularity and success of the project. From articles it appears it was intended as a ladies course although I tend to think it was also very much for those men who found King’s too much of a handful. That might account for the Queen’s being a 9 hole course initially.
 
The question is whether that was the original intention or whether there was always a thought it might be extended in which case you’d might expect Braid to do an 18 hole routing plan at the outset. If however it was intended to be no more than 9 holes did CKH conceive the extra nine holes when the need to extend the course became apparent ? In other words did he design the second nine holes with Braid signing off the plans or was there a larger redesign of the course ?
 
As I said, I’m no expert on Gleneagles, and in particular how the courses evolved however if you look at the present Queen’s course, if you played out to the 4th green and then cut across to the 14th and played in from there you’d have quite a neat out and back 9 hole course. The second nine could then be added without much disruption. Does anyone have a plan of the original 9 hole Queen’s course ?
 
Whatever happened with the extension of the Queen’s and whoever was involved, Braid was back towards the end of 1924 making some tweaks to a couple of holes on the King’s. That suggests to me he would likely have had some involvement in the Queen’s course extension.
 
 
Niall

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