Have they been excluded from modern designs ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gathering bunkers, that is.

Fairway and greenside.

These features seemed to have been more popular in the "golden age" and scarce on modern courses.

Is that due to maintainance issues ?

The emphasis on the aerial game ?

Or, because modern architects want to seperate their designs from designs of the past.

[rgkeller]

Gathering bunkers do not photograph well enough for modern artchitects to bother with.

They look like something a sheep would hunker down in to escape a cold wind.

[George Pazin]

I think rg has a good point, but I also think the pervading notion of fairness - "I didn't hit it in the bunker, it's not fair that the ball rolled in" - is a big factor as well.

To me, that is the best thing about firm and fast. It's really fun watching the ball run and seeing where it ends up. I don't care for drop and stop at all.

[James Edwards]

George,

Exactly... you said it "firm and fast".  Courses seem to be anything but this nowadays hence the collecting bunker is not required.

[Pete Lavallee]

Correct me if I'm wrong but gathering bunkers gather water as well as golf balls, so they are really only practical on very sandy sites. On heavier turf, inviting water to pool in a low spot seems like a recipe for dissaster. Don't architects spend a tremendous amount of effort keeping water from entering bunkers?

[James Edwards]

Pete we do, but how much "gathering" is the main question.

If you are talking about designing a collecting bunker at the bottom of an area which falls with the natural contour than yes, it would be careless to direct that water towards a low point - but gathering bunkers can be designed anywhere and the earthworks for this may not be that significant to warrant a great deal of collection.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Nearly all of my generation of architects have had it drilled into our heads from day one that you should never let water drain into a bunker.  Even on sandy sites, bunker faces are going to wash out if you let water in anywhere but at a low edge.

Also, lots of bunkers that gather shots are not extremely visible to the player 200 yards away, and that's another no-no we've all been taught.

Between those two rules of thumb, it's very tough to change gears and start trying to build bunkers that gather.  I have done it on occasion, but not as much as I would have liked.  Stone Eagle actually has a few.

[paul cowley]

Patrick Mucci states;


"These features seemed to have been more popular in the "golden age" and scarce on modern courses."

I know of very few built in that period in the US....could you provide examples on five different courses?...could you provide any examples on courses that are not sand based?

"Is that due to maintenance issues ?"

Yes....drainage being the foremost.

"The emphasis on the aerial game ?"

Whether the ball runs in or flies into a gathering bunker, the results are the same....so I would say no.

"Or, because modern architects want to seperate their designs from designs of the past."

Once again, no....could you provide the names of five modern architects who have voiced that they want to seperate themselves from designs of the past as part of their mission concerning GCArchitectural design?.........

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:  Pat is still smarting from my mathematical proof that the Redan at National is downhill, and just trying to change the subject.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Deja Vu  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14096;start=0

However, I saw more Donald Steel at Carnegie Abbey in Newport, RI recently and he had some similar gathering bunkers that he had at The Vineyard Club, pics of The Vineyard are above but I did not take any at Carnegie.

[paul cowley]

...ya know, it's really not a stretch that Euros [those who have grown up in the links based tradition].....might fall back on that discipline when asked to design on these shores.

...and we might just carry over a little of our yankee roots when designing over yonder.

but all that aside, I think Kat nailed both sides of the pond tonite with 'Somewhere over the rainbow'.

[Phil Benedict]

Correct me if I'm wrong but gathering bunkers gather water as well as golf balls, so they are really only practical on very sandy sites. On heavier turf, inviting water to pool in a low spot seems like a recipe for dissaster. Don't architects spend a tremendous amount of effort keeping water from entering bunkers?

Once again Pete makes an amazingly insightful comment that totally redirects the thread.

[Doug Siebert]

I love gathering bunkers, and I greatly miss them in today's designs.  I agree that it is probably drainage and fairness that keeps them scarce today.  I still hope it will change someday.  I find it much more interesting to have a smallish bunker that you overlook that sucks in balls 30 feet away from it on one side then to have a really big bunker that gets in your face and demands attention.

I wonder if a lot of it has to do with fairways today generally being flatter (cue the "its unfair if I hit it in the fairway and don't have a good lie!" whinge)  If you have a lot of movement in the fairway it ought to be doable to get balls moving in the direction of a bunker without directing an acre's water into its bottom.

Unless you have very fast and firm conditions it becomes less relevant with today's equipment encouraging a more and more aerial game.  The trajectory of the driver required for best results from today's ball versus 20 years ago and the trajectory of the utility woods and hybrids versus long irons have the ball spending less time on the ground and allow less of an opportunity for gathering.  Just another part of what makes the game great slowly fading away thanks to the USGA's incompetence.

[Troy Alderson]

Gentlemen,

Does a gathering bunker have surrounding terrain sloping in towards the bunker?

Aside from the sloping terrain around the bunker, how is this different from a waste bunker?

Are waste bunkers still in vogue?

Troy

[Jimmy Muratt]

The best example of the use of gathering bunkers on a modern course that I've seen is at the Kingsley Club.  Mike DeVries did a wonderful job with the bunkering and there are numerous examples where a slightly misplaced shot can land in the wrong spot on a green or fairway and then collect into a bunker.  

This, effectively, makes the bunker play far larger than they actually are.  With gathering greenside bunkers, usually these are rather deep as well and then make for a very demanding blast with the risk of the ball trickling right back to your feet.

The firm and fast conditions at Kingsley make the gathering bunker an even greater hazard.

[Troy Alderson]

The firm and fast conditions at Kingsley make the gathering bunker an even greater hazard.

Jimmy,

What are the soil conditions are Kingsley?  Or is the GC Supt that good?  Or is the owners/membership that understanding?

Troy

[Adam_F_Collins]

Can a gathering bunker be designed which does not gather water? Can earthforms be created which serve to guide balls into them WITHOUT causing so much water to go in?

[Jimmy Muratt]

Troy,

The soils of the property are glacial deposits which drain freely.  The fescue fairways are kept very firm and fast.  The ball bounces and runs all over the place.  That's what makes it so much fun, you can play every shot a dozen different ways.  

The super, Dan Lucas, does an amazing job maintaining the firm and fast conditions.  The course is definitely maintained to take advantage of Mike DeVries' design.

[ed_getka]

Troy,
  Yes the super, Dan Lucas, is that good. And there is a fair amount of sand through the site it seems, although I could be wrong about that.

Jimmy,
   What bunkers gather at Kingsley? There are many places where balls can roll into bunkers, but I'm having trouble of thinking of one that actually gathers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Cowley,

Since most bunkers sit below grade drainage is a universal problem for bunkers.

Gathering bunkers will direct more sheet or surface water into a gathering bunker, but, I don't see that as an overwhelming problem given today's modern capabilities and budgets.

Most gathering bunkers that I've seen have had grass walls and flat bottomed sand floors, hence washouts haven't been an issue.

As to seperation, I think the lack of use of older features might offer some evidence.  The need to be uniquely creative instead of using templates would be another.

I don't know that I could look at many modern architects and indicate that they have patented holes, holes which they repeat, or repeat with variations in their designs.  

Tom Doak,

I think the visibility issue may be one driven by medal play and the quest for "fairness"

One would think that gathering bunkers would be ideal for par threes where an elevated tee provides abundant visibility.

Shouldn't architects, in their attempt to provide a challenge to the golfer create features where "AREA" mis-hit shots are directed toward a more ominous hazard ?

Must every shot bounce straight and true ?

[Jimmy Muratt]

Ed,

The following are some of the greenside gathering bunkers at Kingsley that I can quickly think of:

#2, the front left & right greenside bunkers easily gather balls slightly misplayed to a front hole location
#3, the front center greenside bunker
#8, greenside bunker
#13, greenside bunkers
#16, the front left greenside bunker on the Redan hole is a magnet for any golf ball in it's vicinity

[paul cowley]

Patrick....I'm with you about "straight and true, mishit re direction, grass walls and flat bottomed bunkers to help stem erosion and par three visibility"...but I'm not aboard with the idea that somehow modern techno methods should be able to allow us to design features that are impractical given the site conditions....ie; intentionally designing any feature that could create a potential drainage problem.....not only because it would be impractical and costly, but irresponsible considering all the other creative options available for today's designers.
It was interesting to read Seans previous post.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Deja Vu  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14096;start=0

However, I saw more Donald Steel at Carnegie Abbey in
Newport, RI recently and he had some similar gathering
bunkers that he had at The Vineyard Club, pics of The
Vineyard are above but I did not take any at Carnegie.

Mike,

You beat me to it.   Patrick started this same topic less
than 2 years ago, but it's still a valid question.  As we and
others showed previously, there are a few modern examples
of these.  One not shown previously is this scar/gathering
bunker on #2 at Tobacco Road:

[Mike_Sweeney]

Some pics for Patrick of gathering bunkers at Carnegie Abbey by Donald Steel.

[Mark_Fine]

Nice photos of Carnegie Abbey.  The bunkers there are truly hazards and they do gather.  They are deep as well.  I wonder what the members think about them?  I've only played it once soon after it opened so little feedback was available.  

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