Sand Hills vs Ballyneal vs Dismal River - What differences do you expect?

[Jerry Kluger]

Sand Hills is recognized as perhaps the best modern course out there and now Ballyneal is open, or about to open, and Dismal River will open in July.  What differences do you expect amongst the three and do BN or DR have a chance of being recognized as the equal of SH?

[Steve_Roths]

The difference between Sand Hills and Dismal is walkability.  I don't really think Dismal is ideal for walking.  I don't know about Ballyneal, but I get the sense that it is planned to be cart free.

Oh, and Ballyneal and Dismal need members.  Sand Hills has too many on the wait list.

[cary lichtenstein]

I think they will all be different and all will be excellent courses based on the "whisper speak"

[Larry_Keltto]

I'm a Ballyneal member, so you're forewarned ;-)

I've played Ballyneal three times (it opened for limited member play in October) and Sand Hills approximately five times. I haven't seen Dismal.

The land forms at the two courses are very different from each other. The Ballyneal dunes are taller, rougher, more choppy than those at Sand Hills. (I've asked if the dunes at Ballyneal are younger geologically than those at Sand Hills, but I haven't received a definitive answer.) The 18th hole at Ballyneal, however, is very reminiscent of the land forms at Sand Hills -- gentle, almost elegant.

Both courses are very, very wide (they have to be with the wind), with memorable hole after memorable hole. The green sites at both are varied in size and completely original. I think you need to putt well and read the greens well at both. A couple of the Ballyneal greens are really wild with amazing undulation.

I think Ballyneal will yield more uneven fairway lies than Sand Hills.

Ballyneal is walking-only, and use of caddies will be strongly encouraged. It's hoped that the lack/absence of cart traffic will help in preserving its fescue-dominated playing surface.

Sand Hills feels more remote to me than Ballyneal.

I said this in February: some will prefer Ballyneal and some will prefer Sand Hills. If you enjoy wild terrain like that generally found on Irish links, I think you will prefer Ballyneal. If you fancy Scottish links, then you'll go for Sand Hills. Rolling Stones/Beatles, Beethoven/Mozart -- Ballyneal/Sand Hills will be one of those types of debates.

[Jerry Kluger]

We have to presume that DR and SH are similar pieces of property but will the courses be dramatically different and will BN have a similar feel to it?

[Tom_Doak]

I'm curious to see Dismal River.  What I saw of the property two years ago was not much like Sand Hills at all ... open and undulating yes, but much different in its undulations, with bigger beefier hills.  

I'm also curious to see what Jack and Chris Cochran did with it ... my sense from working with Jack is that he always thinks in terms of aerial shots, and in the Sand Hills winds, you have to allow for letting a ball bounce into the green for downwind conditions.  I'm sure he knows that, I just want to see how he handles it.  There did appear to be several elevated greens in the pictures.

As for Ballyneal, I will be there in about a week and look forward to playing it.  Enough so that I have no interest in going to check out the competition this trip, anyway.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom:
As I understand it, as the crow flies, Dismal River is two miles from Sand Hills, but the land is much different - that's very interesting.  

Nicklaus had great success in the British Open where the ground game is surely a necessity in order to succeed so shouldn't we expect that he will afford golfers the opportunity to use it where the land and the winds make it necessary?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jerry

Why not add C&C's Colorado GC into this equation? Or are you doing courses in the middle of nowhere only?

It will open this fall or earlier.

Steve

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

Colorado Golf Club will almost certainly be an excellent course, but I don't think the terrain is similar to the three we've been comparing.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

Never mind. I was about to delete my post when I realized the terrain is decidely different at CGC.You beat me to the punch. Maybe there should be a new thread on "the best courses in the middle of nowhere."

Steve

[Ron Farris]

Jerry, I have been to all of the Sand Hill golf course sites (Ballyneal, Dismal, Sand Hills, and Prairi e Club).  Each site is different in its own special way. Dismal will be considered just as good as SH by many, but mostly for the overall project.  By that I mean the clubhouse, etc. at DR.  Ballyneal is very special and Tom and the crew have done a fabulous  job with playability, aesthetics, etc.  Dismal really blew me away with the creativity of the greensites.  They took a less sensative approach to construction in my opinion, but that is my opinion.  They all have the similarity of wide fairways, which is a no brainer in the SH.

Choppy dunes at Bally make it dramatic in view.   The par 3 holes at Dismal are very interesting.  

I grew up down the road from the Sand Hills Golf Club and it being the Mother of championship golf in the sand hills I like the flow of the course and the way it seems to melt into the land.

Being a member of any or all of these courses would be a great treasure.  

[Jerry Kluger]

Ron: That's interesting what you said about the greensites at DR - do you supposed JN recognized the conditions that golfers would be facing in designing them and what about his work with Tom Doak - I saw some of the green complexes at Sebonack and they looked to be really interesting and challenging.

[RJ_Daley]

Ron, or anyone else that might know.... what species and cultivar of turf for FWs Ts and Gs has been seeded at DR?  We know it is a secret at BallyNeal, and we know that the turf has evolved at SH.  I think the turf will become a noticeable characteristic to distinguish these courses, particularly over time and maintenance regime.

To some extent, the terrain differences relate to what I call the frequency of the rolls, hummocks and hollows of the 3 differing sand hills terrains of these 3 courses.  As Ron observes (and I have not seen except in photos) DR might have taken a more aggressive approach to shaping the FWs and corridors of play with earth movement than the other two clubs.  Yet, from what I saw, TD certainly appears to have had to move more at BallyNeal than now meets the eye from what we see has grown-in and blended as if nothing was done.

I wonder if a person will emerge that can afford to belong to all three clubs, and would sort of by that definition of commitment to three remote clubs alone, be fanatic enough to opine in the future as to the contrasting merits of the three.

Frankly, the best forum to find out what differences there are between these three clubs will come sometime in the future, at a regional superintendents meeting, when the three supers of these highly acclaimed and anticipated courses go into the gin mill and after some lubrication, start talking shop.

[Ron Farris]

Mr. Daley,

I am not sure what the exact mixes are for each club, but the conditioning of the courses may very well determine which is the best course according to people who put a great deal of importance on this aspect of GC Architecture.  With the size of the bunkers at DR it will be interesting to see how the wind affects them over time.  Bunkers on the north side of greens could cover the greens during the winter, but that is the fun part of turf care in the SH area. I do have insight into the grass types but I think that is for the Architect or Super to disclose.  

Great golf courses in a great part of the world that will never see a great number of people -----sounds like a great part of the world to me!

One thing that is prevalent on DR and BN is highly contoured greens.  Without turf covers in the winter I would anticipate winter desiccation.