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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
My Next Big Trip
« on: May 12, 2006, 07:48:49 PM »
I won't be around here much the next three weeks because I've got places to go and people to see.  The full itinerary:

1. Bayonne Golf Club - the former pro at Cape Kidnappers, Dwight Segall, is their golf pro so I'm going over to snoop and to say hi
2. Garden City Golf Club - seeing how the qualifiers for the Travis Invitational play some of the key holes
3. Black Mesa, N.M. - to see if it's really better than Pacific Dunes
4. Tucson, Ariz. - to look at a potential new site
5. Ballyneal, Colorado - to see how it wintered and to play some golf
6. Rock Creek, Montana - to spend a week fine-tuning the next big thing
7. Tumble Creek, Washington - ribbon cutting at the Grand Opening

I should have plenty to talk about when I get back, and look forward to being able to discuss the totality of Black Mesa without being chastised by Matt.

Sam Sikes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2006, 07:52:24 PM »
Tom,

What are the Key Holes you wish to see at Garden City the amatuers play.


Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2006, 07:58:48 PM »
Tom,
Did you ever go to play Jasper Park?  Fill us in if you did, I understand they did a restoration of all of the bunkering to return them to the original Stanley Thompson design.
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2006, 07:59:10 PM »
Sam:

There are some holes where we might consider putting a back tee someday [3, 4, 6, 8, and one hole I can't tell you because you'd think I was crazy], and there are other holes that I just want to see what they're trying to do now [1, 9, 13].

Bill:

Still haven't gotten to Alberta.  This was the trip I was thinking of going, but I decided to stop through Black Mesa and Ballyneal instead of jetting around Banff and Jasper in three days and not doing them justice.  And I'm only home for two weeks at the end of this before it's back to Sebonack and to Scotland.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 08:01:15 PM by Tom_Doak »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2006, 08:02:25 PM »
Tom Doak,

Would # 5 or # 11 be considered crazy ?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2006, 08:04:43 PM »
Pat:  I think #5 would just be too dangerous.  I've never even thought about #11 ... it's dangerous already now that more guys going straight toward the green on 7 with their second shots.

I really can't tell you what hole it is because a lot of people would consider the idea dangerous or silly.  I need to watch the flow of play to see if it would work; if not, I'm not going to even bring it up.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 08:06:54 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2006, 08:27:20 PM »
Hey Tom,

Look forward to hearing about how Ballyneal looks and Tucson.  I will get to play Black Mesa in October for the second time, first time was with this group at the land of enchantment tour in SEP of '03.  

J.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 08:27:48 PM by Jason_Hines »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2006, 08:29:56 PM »
Tom Doak,

But, if the 7th fairway were shifted to the right, to its earlier, circa 1936 configuration, it would remove the 11th tee from the line of fire, thus allowing it to be moved back, which in turn would bring the cross bunkers on # 11 back into play.

Returning the 7th fairway to its 1936 configuration would also bring the long, right side trench bunker back into play, and it would optimize the risk-reward, similar to # 3, wherein, the closer one comes to the right side trench bunker, the better the angle of attack into the green which slopes from high left to low right.

In essence, the 7th hole is improved and made safer, the 11th hole is returned to its intent, vis a vis the tee shot, and the backdrop to the 10th tee is favorably changed, since the 11th tee would be moved to the left of the 10th green removing it from the sight and play lines.

A lengthened 5th tee is an interesting study.

Most golfers aren't on the 4th green or anywhere near it when the previous foursome is teeing off # 5.

The hole has become a 3-iron, wedge.

With respect to Ballyneal, how much of a factor is the winter in terms of the impact on conditioning and a limited playing season ?

Can anything be done to extend the season, or, does Mother Nature have the final say ?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 08:32:08 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2006, 08:30:29 PM »
If you think actually playing a course will get you off the hook with Matt, you don't know Matt....

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2006, 08:33:02 PM »
Tom D:

Lighten up partner -- you're already spooked about what I may say even before saying it. Looks like you may have a severe case of rabbit-ear-itis ! ;D

I'm looking forward to your comments on Black Mesa -- but let's be clear when you talk about Pac Dunes -- you're the guy who designed that gem and I would find it very hard for you to somehow separate yourself from the kind of parent-child dynamic that is clearly present.

Nonetheless, I will be very much interested in your thoughts on the overall routing -- and the totality of what the greens do present. Black Mesa doesn't handle mediocrity very well so I'm guessing you may grade the place a good bit lower because of the playability elements you decried with Winged Foot / West. That's just my observation -- and I could well be wrong.

By the way -- I look forward to your thoughts on Bayonne GC. I walked the place and there are clear moments when it does extremely well. No doubt it's overly cooked up through the hands of man but it's got more uniqueness than Liberty National simply because the envelope was indeed pushed at the former and less so at the latter.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2006, 08:38:43 PM »
Patrick:

I won't discuss GCGC business on this forum before I discuss it with them first, and probably not afterward, either, since they don't seem to like it.  

However, I have thought about the fairway on #7.  To make it work, I believe you would also have to add new bunkers all around #11 tee to discourage players from taking the direct line toward #7 green with their second shots.  And if too many players are bee-lining toward the green and making it on the fly, then the fairway and bunkers really don't matter; that's one of the many things I hope to see on Friday.

The other part of the study is just to see what guys shoot in the qualifying rounds now -- if there aren't a ton of guys breaking par without breaking a sweat, I don't know why there would be a crying need for a bunch more back tees.  Nothing reflecting on Garden City here, but in general, there are a lot of clubs doing a lot of work to correct a problem that they have blown way out of proportion.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2006, 08:47:09 PM »
So, Matt, will I downgrade Black Mesa more because I'm a biased architect or because I'm a mediocre player?

Give me a break.  If it's a ten I would be happy to say so.  If it's a 9, like Winged Foot West which I downgraded so much, that would still be awesome.  But it would be silly to expect that much on the drive in.  I just hope it's fun to play for those of us who don't drive the ball 330 down the pipe ... because that's what good golf architecture is really all about.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2006, 09:12:09 PM »
Tom:

I live two miles from Bayonne and 0.4 miles from Liberty (Hudson County, NJ).

If you need an inside track on local restaurants - just give me a shout. They are better than you'd think.

Get here quick - The Freedom of the Seas - the biggest passenger ship in the world is currently parked opposite  Bayonne Golf Club, so you can review both at the same time ;) .

I think she's leaving on Thursday.



Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2006, 09:37:13 PM »
Tom,

Seeing the great places and courses you visit and play, reminds me of a good friend of mine of Dallas and Carmel who has as his California license plate...TWLM....The worlds luckiest man.

You should get the same plate from your home state.

Bob

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2006, 09:49:36 PM »
Mr. Doak,

I am interested to know what you think is going to make the Montana course the next big thing?

What is unique about it?  What are the perceived strengths?

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2006, 10:41:20 PM »
Bob,
   Would that be your friend I met when we last went round MPCC?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2006, 11:47:07 PM »
Tom, I think a much more apt comparison is Black Mesa and Apache Stronghold.  Both are high desert courses in wonderful scenery.  To  my eye, I thought the transitions into desert areas were more artful at AS, but BM has incredible use of very unusual features.  Two of the par 3s go right into box canyons with high walls, truly awe inspiring and make one prone to inattention.  BM and AS both have excellent short par 4s, #4 and #6 at AS and #7 and #14 at BM.  You will enjoy those holes at BM.  The greens are comparable in scale, contour, bunkering.

A drawback at Black Mesa is the rockiness of the rough areas, hard to make a transition into them.  Keep it in the short grass or first cut!  Otherwise, stand by for nicked irons.  Nothing Baxter could have done about that, it's just not sandy rough.

So overall, overlooking AS's current conditioning, I rate Apache Stronghold and Black Mesa about equal.  But I don't think Black Mesa is the equal of Pacific Dunes.  JMHO.  It's a stout golf course in a great setting, but how could you equal the setting and styling of Pacific Dunes?

Have you given thought to joining the Buda teams at Hoylake in October?

Regards,
Bill McBride
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 11:48:22 PM by Bill_McBride »

Mark_F

Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2006, 03:08:05 AM »
When are you coming back to Australia?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2006, 09:49:50 AM »
we gotta get you a client in the Chicago area Tom!!!

haven't had my coffee yet, but it seems like it's been so long since we 've had a good course built here...

probably was Black Sheep, which opened about 5 years ago
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 09:59:07 AM by Paul T »
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2006, 10:11:16 AM »
I'll second Paul T from the public perspective.  There hasn't been a public course built in Chicago for some time that stands out from the pack architecturally.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2006, 10:13:44 AM »
although I guess we are going to get a 8000 yard  :o John Daly  ::) design in Bolingbrook..
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Matt_Ward

Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2006, 08:22:45 PM »
Tom D:

Lighten up partner.

All I suggested is that the "playability" component seems to be a big part of your assessments -- and I do agree it needs to be included. The question is one of degree.

I believe Black Mesa is one of the finest public courses you can play in the USA. It is demanding off the tee and the greens are rather severe in any number of spots. The course offers a superb site with a stellar routing that takes you through all the key attributes of the property.

The thing about courses near water areas like Pac Dunes is the amount of bonus points they often get when compared to layouts without them.

Like I said -- I'll be a very interested reader when you finally play Black Mesa. Do yourself a huge favor -- play the appropriate tees because Black Mesa doesn't suffer fools from the tips from anyone -- otherwise your opinion of the course may be impacted.

Mark Arata

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2006, 12:34:50 AM »
Mr Doak:

Is the Tuscon course a public or private facility? My dad has a house out there that I might move into if it is public ;D
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2006, 02:23:37 AM »
Tom D:

Lighten up partner.

All I suggested is that the "playability" component seems to be a big part of your assessments -- and I do agree it needs to be included. The question is one of degree.

Like I said -- I'll be a very interested reader when you finally play Black Mesa. Do yourself a huge favor -- play the appropriate tees because Black Mesa doesn't suffer fools from the tips from anyone -- otherwise your opinion of the course may be impacted.

Matt

I will never, EVER, fancy a desert course over one built in sand dunes.  What Mr. Doak thinks is his own biz

golf began in the sand dunes, on linksland, not in the mountains of New Mexico.

mountain golf CAn be cool
same with tree lined golf
marshland golf

But NOTHING will ever supplement golf built on sand

sorry, just my opinion
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:My Next Big Trip
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2006, 03:06:21 AM »
Tom,
When at Garden City, do us all a favor and jump on a bulldozer and redo the 12th. Make it look like the gem it once was. They'll praise you for it later.

Matt, You have got to stop throwing around those 'partners.' How do you know these people want to be your partner? You don't have to tell me to lighten' up either. I'm already trying to do that.