When is a golf hole over the top?

[Dan_Callahan]

Had a chance to play Wyantenuck yesterday—one of my all-time favorite courses. Located in Great Barrington, Mass, the course features some of the best greens in the state. Yesterday, they were rolling as well as any greens I have ever seen.

The second hole on the course is controversial. I love it. It is a 246-yard, blind par 3. There is a slight hill that rises gradually in front of the tee box. It continues to rise for about 150 yards, and then goes downhill to the green. You can't see the green or any part of the flag from the tee. There is an aiming stake in the middle of the fairway.

The green is relatively small and a falls away at a fairly steep angle. Thus, not only is it blind, but it is impossible to stop the ball on it. Obviously, anything short leaves an impossible chip/putt down to the green—which will roll all the way across and off the other side.

The only smart play is to hit the tee shot long and then chip back up to the green and try to make par. It should be noted that there is no deep rough anywhere near the green, so chipping and putting from the surrounds is not difficult. There are also no bunkers around the green.

I've always loved the hole because it is unique. I wouldn't want to see the design spring up at lots of courses, but for Wyantenuck, it is pretty cool. There are plans in place to change the hole so that it is not as severe. I like the proposed changes, but will miss the current hole as well.

My question: when does a hole become so crazy and over the top that change is necessary?

 If someone asked me my thoughts on a 250-yard blind par 3 with a green that is impossible to hold even with a sandwedge, I guess I would say it's not a very good design. However, in this context, in my opinion, it works.

[Bob_Huntley]

Dan,

I can think of an over-the-top green on a so-so hole.

The original Par four 14th hole on the Carmel Valley Ranch
had a green at about right angles to the line of play. It was (my memory is hazy here) about fifty yards long and twenty or so feet wide. It had ledges every ten yards of its length and I have never seen anything quite like it, until this years Olympic WInter games in Turin that showcased the snowboarding free-style aerials.

I am unable to use our SEARCH function here with any success
but we dscussed this at length two or three years ago.

Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,
They're bringing the green to the top of the hill and pushing the tee back, correct?

I love/hate this hole and have played it when the rough was deeper than you suggest, although not much more than 3" at anytime. I always wished they would mow 10 or 20 yards of fairway behind the green, but there is the problem with the tee shot coming from #3, even though it's a private club.
I've got to think that problem, along with the bottleneck the hole creates during any event, has played some part in the club's decision to change it.
I don't think the hole quite reaches the threshold of over-the-top, but it's a good example of 'close'. Move it to a public course and it gets even closer. Add one more degree of tilt to the green and you're there.

Subjectively, I don't know any way to decide what's over-the-top for anyone else but me. Objectively, if you can't 'par' a hole 20% of the time, given your handicap, then something's wrong.

[Dan_Callahan]

Jim,

They are moving the first green back and to the left, creating a longer hole and more of a dogleg. The second tee will move to the right (they will clear out the woods over there). Then the green moves more toward the top of the hill and to the left. I'm not sure of the length of the new hole, but I'm sure it will be good—seems like evry change they make there (such as the new green on 4, new green on 15) ends up being for the best.

I agree about the love-hate relationship with 2. Since I have never seen a hole like it, I kind of like it. In many ways, it is a great equalizer between a good and bad golfer. Most hacks can hit driver, get the ball rolling down the slope and put it somewhere around the green. Even the best player can't do much better than try to get the tee shot in a good position past the hole.

It seems to play the same for everyone, and can get into your head to start a round. There are plenty of places to score on the course, so I like that at least in that one instance you're really just trying not to get your butt kicked.

[ed_getka]

Dan,
  The hole you describe sounds over the top to me. Why don't they just put the tee box behind the green and it can be the world's shortest par 3, since it is just a chipping contest anyway from the sounds of it?
   IMO, any par 3 green that cannot be held no matter how well a shot is hit from the tee, is over the top.
   

[Dan_Callahan]

Ed,

I agree in principle. There is just something about the hole, as Jim will probably agree, that is alluring. The length alone is pushing it. Throw into the mix a blind green and it becomes really different/crazy. Give the green a severe slope from front to back and it borders on impossible.

However, the green site is intelligently constructed considering the difficulty of the tee shot—no hazards or deep rough, and lots of room past the hole to allow you to go long.

It is an interesting test of discipline. You stand on the tee knowing that you must miss the green long and depend on your ability to get up and down. It flies in the face of traditional strategy. I guess I just kind of like that change-up being thrown at a me from time to time to make sure I am paying attention.

Like I said, the new hole is sure to be good and certainly less controversial. I wonder what will be lost.

In some ways it is similar to if Yale had long ago caved to the complaints and flattened the mountain in the middle of the par 5 18th. I've never liked the hole, but I know people who love it. A hole that can polarize opinions to that degree at least lends some added interest to the game and is fun to discuss.

[Tom Huckaby]

BillV - ever played this golf hole?

http://www.westinmissionhillsgolf.com/courses.php?CourseID=ea80277edc8aa1fb66cf139e7ea00612&HoleNumber=5

cut and paste into browser if link doesn't work...

Mission Hills - Gary Player course

What that diagram doesn't show is that all tee pads are raised - and cascading down from the front-most tee area toward the green is an enormous overblown waterfall... which of course you don't see unless you look back at the tee, from the green.

I believe this hole meets your definition.  I read your words and thought of it immediately.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ed,
I would only add to Dan's remarks by saying that it isn't an impossible green to hold. I've played it quite a few times over the past 25 years (not as much as a member, but enough to gauge the hole) and while you will see the majority of shots either left, right, long or short, the remainder can find and hold the green.
Actually, I don't think this hole is much harder to get to than many other par 3s that play at 246 yds..    

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,
Don't forget the back half of #8 green, that was added in the late '90s, and is another seamless improvement.

One thing that adds to number #2's playability is that it's a ground-level green, it just flows with the natural down hill slope of the surrounding area. Missing from time to time doesn't force a player into a do or die recovery but you will need the touch of a safecracker to make 3.

One of the pleasures of Wyantenuck(for me) is the number of greens that are built this way, i.e., following the natural slope of the surrounding area. Holes like 1, 2 and 3 do this very well with 5, 6 and 7 following suit. Number 12 also does it well. The drive on this par 4 might not seem overly demanding and at first look the approach doesn't seem overly perplexing, until you realize that this fairway-level-green with its two subtle plateaus is nearly surrounded by 7' deep bunkering. Not the place for a wayward shot.

I, like you, believe that the club (and Peter Bacon) will create a worthy replacement for number #2, but I think that after it's gone it will be missed (but probably not for too long)   .  

[Tim Gavrich]

Jim Kennedy--
    Do you think that the 9th at Hotchkiss approaches over-the-top status, in that it is a length that should make it reachable, but forces the player to hit straight downhill to a narrow area with OB on both sides, followed by not much of a layup area?  I played the hole 2 years ago, so I'm not sure if there have been any changes, but it didn't seem all that great, in my recollection.

[Wayne Freeman]

What about the new 285 yrd. par 3 at Oakmont for the Open there?  When does distance like that put the hole over the top?

[Walt Cutshall]

Sounds like a stupid hole to me. I don't have a problem with the length, but a blind par 3? Then a green that won't hold any kind of shot, let alone the type of shot required by the design of the hole? No thanks.

[Tom Huckaby]

Whoa!  That's a wild aerial - green patches cut out of the desert...  And yes, It would seem a waterfall there just plain isn't right.  

But yes, I'd have to guess the MH-GP hole is busier.  I forgot to mention the terraces of beautiful flowers that the waterfall moves through... It is one hell of a visual, for those so inclined.  What got me though is the fact you don't see it unless you look backwards from the green.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Doctor Bill, I cannot believe you have the nerve to call me a homer when I say positives about any course I used to know intimately, and then you, in the span of one week, make positive statements about CARMEL VALLEY RANCH.

AS DESI WOULD SAY, " LUUUUCCCYYYYY,,,,,,YOU GOT SOME SPLAN'IN TO DO."


 

As for this hole, It's been around how long? At least 25 years, according to Jim.

 Reminds me, or sounds like, holes from Lincoln Park in SF, and Tam O'shanter in West Bloomfield, Mi..

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
The fairway you mention is 60 yds wide.
The 9th is not unreachable. If you bend the tee shot around the corner or take it over the trees you can have anywhere from 230 to 170 yards in, although you better be perfect if you're using this option (something your coach would frown on in a match). If you are in possession of a fairway club that you can hit around 260 yards, straight and slightly uphill, you don't even have to bend it around the corner or take it over the trees, just flirt with the woods on the right with your tee shot and you'll find yourself with that yardage left to reach the green.

Basically the hole plays like this: Play a very conservative tee shot, the second shot becomes harder. A bit more aggressive (still 'safe') play from the tee and the second shot becomes easier. Very aggressive play from the tee is neccessary if you want a chance of going for the green in two. You can get loose and  survive the hole from the first two options, you need to be near perfect using the third.

A lot of people don't like those options