Where do Doak's courses rate on the Doak scale?

[PThomas]

Huck:  the 10's in his book are:

TOC
Dornoch
Muirfield
Ballybunion
Royal Melbourne-West

Pine Valley
Merion
NGL
Shinny
Pinehurst 2
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point

and SOMEWHERE TOm wrote that PD and S Hills are 10s too

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul - man I am getting closer and closer to having to do something so rarely done on here by anyone... and that is admit I am wwwwwrrrrooo... I can't spit it out.

Before I do - can you list the 9s?

[Jim Nugent]

Paul -- Tom doesn't rank ANGC any better than 15th, then.  Quite a bit lower than I see in other lists.  

[Garland Bayley]

On the thread that I believe eventually lead to this thread, Tom listed Sand Hills as one of his top 5. I guess that would make it a 10 on the Doak scale.

[Greg Holland]

I may not have them all, but I believe the 9's are:

Winged Foot West
Oakmont
ANGC
Seminole
The Golf Club
Oakland Hills
Sand Hills
Prairie Dunes
Shadow Creek
Pebble Beach
Riviera
SFGC
Caso de Campo
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
Rye
Royal County Down
Royal Portrush

[Tom_Doak]

A note:  the ranking of Sand Hills was done before Sand Hills was even open.  It's passed the requisite waiting period to earn a 10 now.

As for my own courses, I have rankings in my head for each of them, but ultimately it is others' opinions of them which are more objective.  I do think it's better than the 8 that someone gave it!

[Sean_A]

As for my own courses, I have rankings in my head for each of them, but ultimately it is others' opinions of them which are more objective.  I do think it's better than the 8 that someone gave it!

Tom

It looks like the Doak Scale turned a tail on ya.  I bet the Archie God above has a grin on his face!

Ciao

Sean

[Tom Huckaby]

I may not have them all, but I believe the 9's are:

Winged Foot West
Oakmont
ANGC
Seminole
The Golf Club
Oakland Hills
Sand Hills
Prairie Dunes
Shadow Creek
Pebble Beach
Riviera
SFGC
Caso de Campo
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
Rye
Royal County Down
Royal Portrush

Greg - thanks!  Methinks I won't have to utter the W word after all.  That's how I had it in my mind... I just can't put PD above all of those.  A few maybe, but not all.

So I'm gonna stick with 9 after all.

TH

[mike_malone]

 When I emphasize the "travel" component of the Doak scale I must rate Beechtree a 6--we ( not the "royal" we; just my posse) try to get there once a year. Stonewall is a 5. I've been there and don't try to go back but would go if invited .

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - Of course TD isn't gonna say on here how he rates his own courses... too high would mean arrogance, too low would mean false modesty... talk about a no-win.  

And I'm sure he is interested in how others rate them using his scale.

But who knows the scale and how it works better than it's creator?  

That's all I meant.  If something equals a 9 or 10 in his mind, I have a great frame of reference as for how the scale really works.  I may not agree with what he says, but at least it gives context.

And so basing it on all the 9s and 10s as listed by TD himself, well... I am back to feeling OK with PD as a 9 again.  And it's not that it has any weakness really - it's more that I just can't put it over all of those other 9s nor am I prepared to disagree with very many of his assessments.

[Jim Nugent]

Huck -- which courses that are 9's would you rate above Pacific Dunes?  And would you rate those courses 9's -- or 10's?  

I think you should limit it to courses you've at least walked, and preferably played.  

BTW, I just checked Golfweek's ratings.  They put Pacific Dunes above all the U.S. courses rated 9, except ANGC.  They also put it above all the Doak 10's except Pine Valley and CPC, and in a tie with Shinnie.  Overall, Golfweek ranks Pacific Dunes tied for 5th in the U.S., one one-hundredth of a point behind ANGC.  Only PVGC, CPC, ANGC and Sand Hills are rated higher.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck -- which courses that are 9's would you rate above Pacific Dunes?  And would you rate those courses 9's -- or 10's?  

I think you should limit it to courses you've at least walked, and preferably played.  

Oh sure Jim, put me on the spot.  

But OK, this is fun.

One caveat:  I don't walk golf courses sans playing.  So no worries there.  Taking the list of 10s and 9s as posted here, this is how it goes for me:

10s
TOC - better than PD
Dornoch - better than PD
Muirfield - equal
Ballybunion - better than PD
Royal Melbourne-West - haven't played
Pine Valley - haven't played
Merion - haven't played
NGL - better than PD
Shinny - better than PD
Pinehurst 2 - haven't played
Crystal Downs - haven't played
Cypress Point - better than PD

9s
Winged Foot West - better than PD
Oakmont - haven't played
ANGC - haven't played (but man I believe I know enough to say I'd put it above PD)
Seminole - haven't played
The Golf Club - haven't played
Oakland Hills - haven't played
Sand Hills - better than PD (belongs in the 10s)
Prairie Dunes - haven't played
Shadow Creek - PD is better
Pebble Beach - better than PD
Riviera - better than PD
SFGC - equal (tall statement there!)
Caso de Campo - haven't played
Royal Worlington & Newmarket - haven't played
Rye - haven't played
Royal County Down - better than PD

Whew!  OK, so there are a lot of those I haven't played.  But I believe I know enough about each to make an educated guess.  I'm also very much NOT prepared to defend any of these assessments to the death... PD is a great course and I could be wrong about a few, many, or all.

My main point remains that I just can't put PD above all of those 9s, which would seem to be required to make it a 10.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

When I emphasize the "travel" component of the Doak scale I must rate Beechtree a 6--we ( not the "royal" we; just my posse) try to get there once a year. Stonewall is a 5. I've been there and don't try to go back but would go if invited .

Mike, Mike, Mike...

If Stonewall's a 5, then it's no wonder you give Merion East a 6!  

[ed_getka]

Tim Pitner,
   Sand Hills is not a difficult walk for 18 holes, but nobody that I know of plays 18 holes at SH. When you know you are going to be playing on average 36-45 holes a day for a few days, that is where a cart comes in and a reputation for a difficult walk comes from. Sand Hills doesn't even sniff the top 10 for difficult walks I would imagine.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

I played Charlotte Golf Links last week starting on #10.  "The Finish in the Forest" on #8-9 was noticably different than 10-18 and#1-7.

I like the course.  It's priced reasonably at $44.  I wish that the greens were stimping a little more than 5 on the day that we played.  Big transition to Quail Hollow Club for the pro-am the following day.

Overall, a Doak self-proscribed rating 4 (I don't have the C.G. handy) just doesn't seem to give the course its due given the playabilty of its repica holes of H.C.E.G., and its precursor to Pacific Dunes as an architectural study of the evolution of the man's work.  It is a nice plot of land where something out of character to all of the parkland golf courses that surround it (C.C.C., Q.H.C., Myers Park, TPC Piper).

For a course that he doesn't think represents his best work, Charlotte Golf Links is an oxymoron (Think Jumbo Shrimp, Gov't Intelligence, Family Vacation).  

Thanks Tom!

JWK

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim Pitner,
   Sand Hills is not a difficult walk for 18 holes, but nobody that I know of plays 18 holes at SH. When you know you are going to be playing on average 36-45 holes a day for a few days, that is where a cart comes in and a reputation for a difficult walk comes from. Sand Hills doesn't even sniff the top 10 for difficult walks I would imagine.

Ed - you're right about that.  But equate it to Pacific Dunes... If anything PD is the easier walk.  Tim was just taking me to task because I cited walking difficulty as a negative at PD, something that would keep it from being a Doak 10 for me.  Given I call SH the best course on the planet, and continue to believe that - it is the world's most solid 10 - then he was right to take me to task.

TH

[mike_malone]

 Mike C.,

    As I read the 5 category it says " a very good course".  Stonewall is a very good course.

   I think Merion is a strong 8.

    Whoops--"well above average course" is 5. So, shoot me!!!. But I wouldn't argue hard for a 6 . I need to save my energies for bustin' on Merion and WFW.

[corey miller]

I don't know if I would term SH a difficult walk, but it is a harder walk than the other ten Doak 9,10's I have played.  

Nobody is saying it is a cartball course but it is foolish to say it is not a difficult walk.  I even saw somebody pass out on the tenth hole.

[Scott Coan]

Kidnappers  8
Barnbougle  8+
Gunnamatta 6

[George Pazin]

Sheep Ranch - 20

That's the kind of post I like to see.

 

The Rawls Course was a 10 for me, but more realistically it's a 7-8. It would only be a realistic 10 if it were in my backyard.

[George Pazin]

P.S. The 9 Tom gave Oakmont was obviously a typo.

Not the Pebble one, though.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

P.S. The 9 Tom gave Oakmont was obviously a typo.

Not the Pebble one, though.

 

I was wondering if you would catch those.

 

[redanman]

George

Cirba's wrong, Sheep Ranch is at least a 30.

Tom's work has different appeals to different people, I for one prefer Stonewall Udder (save #18 - which TD and I talked about) to the original and I also believe that I am in the minority (which includes my wife).  I would probably give Udder an 8.

A Doak number really only means something if Doak gives it.  I don't think Tom gives a rat's ass what Doak number I give his courses.



Suggested syntax and support for others to use:

"In my opinion, I think that using the Doak scale that I can just barely assign a number of 8 to Stonewall Udder.  It has some very creative land uses such as the par 5 (4.5) third and the shortish par 4 13th.  It also has soome very nice varied par 4's using the land very well on # 4, 5, 7 and 14 and 15.  I would not argue with Tom if he told me I was full of scheisse and could at best give it 7." -WJV

[redanman]

9s

SFGC - equal (tall statement there!)
TH

What happens when the restoration is completed?

[Tom Huckaby]

BV - well, I'm one who is very much on record as saying such was not really needed; that is, that the holes they had for the last 50 years or whatever were just fine....

However, I trust that those folks wouldn't make the time and effort if it weren't a net improvement.  The restoration of Little Tillie alone will be very interesting to see.

We shall see what happens.  In any case, if SDGC old is a 9, hard for me to give PD a 10.  That's the belabored point I am trying to make.

TH