Lots of great seaside places left?

[Jay Flemma]

So I have a question for everybody...and yes, I know...alot of the answer to this question depends on spreading and growing the game as widely as possible.

Tom Doak's thread on the fact that the economic margin of building CCs is rapidly dwindling...but leaving that out for now...

You know how lots of people say "there aren't any great sites left for golf?  I was looking at a map and saw tons of seaside territory that might just have sandy soil...or at least something offering god terrain for the game...

Lets see....France has alot of coastline, as do Italy, Germany, even Poland.  Heck, Norway, Sweden, Denmark have alot of coastline.

Then theirs OODLES of coastline in Japan and even China.  Australia?  Lots of coastline...

How much of the coastal areas of those countries are amenable to a golf course and why do we not see the Bandon/Barnbougle/Carne of any of these countries?  Why cant we get some more epic links?

[Jim Thompson]

Jay,

Because the people that know about them are keeping them and their ideas under their hats.  I think in the next 10 to 20 you'll see your idea realized.

JT

[Mike_Sweeney]

Jay ,

Would you like to be the lead investor?

[David_Tepper]

Jay -

About a year ago, I raised the possiblity of linksland on the Chilean coastline. Apparently, there is quite a bit of it there.

DT

[Tim Pitner]

You know, not every seaside property should be turned into a golf course, especially if it's a private course or a terribly expensive course that few can enjoy.  I love the Bandons and Barnbougles (not that I've played Barnbougle) of the world, but not every region would be improved by a golf course.  

[Jay Flemma]

Jim:  Any ideas where?

MIke:  Sure, what's my pay scale?

Chile:  Will the economy support it?  Will it be a safe travel destiniation? I know a couple GCAers who are well travelled that have a healthy fear of Argentina despite the good Dr.s work there...

Tim:  I agree...so which do you think CAN of the places I listed and which cannot?  Obviously even some ambiguous breakaway Russian republics have coastline, but I dont think we'll see Estonia CC or Links of Lithuania rocking the ratings charts any  time soon...let alone Persimmonstan or Hybridistan

[Peter Pallotta]

I don't want to be a downer, but I have to agree with Tim (not to put words in his mouth):

IMO, the vast majority of golfers will not have access to these great seaside places/courses; so, in order to really grow the game, maybe it's time to change our expectations.  

As I suggested on Tom D's thread about changing economics, it seems to me that these 'great pieces of land' will either be in already-established resort destinations, and therefore expensive, and therefore lending themselves only to exclusively private or high end public courses; or they'll be so far from major urban areas as to make them, for most people, a once in a life time destination (not a bad thing in and of itself, of course).  

I know it's asking a lot, but maybe the fine architects around might start trying to make the very best out of average pieces of land (even old landfills, etc) that might be closer to where most people live yet not be so expensive to purchase in the first place -- which might address the 'changing economics' from both sides of the fence, i.e. builders and players alike.

By the way, IMO Jim Thompson (from what I can tell from his website) has gotten it absolutely right with Angel's Crossing; a lovely, interesting and affordable course that's made the most of a decent if not spectacular piece of land.  

Sorry for the side-bar; I know this is not exactly what Jay was asking about.

Peter

[Tim Pitner]

Jay,

Perhaps this is a bias on my part, but I think golf fits better in certain countries than others.  To me, it fits best in Britain, Ireland and former British colonies (including Canada, Australia and New Zealand).  Now, obviously there are good courses and good golf traditions elsewhere (e.g., France, Netherlands, etc.).  When I visited Spain, however, I couldn't help but think that most of the courses in the vicinity of Marbella would have been better left as rolling, cork-treed countryside.

I can't say that I wouldn't enjoy a Tom Doak (or other favorite architect's) course in Italy or Spain, but when you look at the courses there now, you tend to think that golf courses haven't added much to these areas and may have detracted from them.  Based on the Asian golf courses I've seen on the Golf Channel's coverage of the European Tour, my statement may apply to Asia too.  Of course, I'm speaking as a traveler to these great places, not as a local golf customer.  

So, I don't know--I'm sure there could be some great courses built in the places you mentioned and, if the locals want them, they should be built.  But, I can't say I'm rooting too hard for them, especially when there are so many courses I've yet to play in North America, the U.K., and Ireland.

[Pete Lavallee]

Believe it or not there is some great links like terrain in Poland along the Baltic coast. I was there on business last year and spoted several areas that looked great for golf. But it is very possible that the economics just won't work.

I decided while I was there it would be great fun to golf in Poland; hey they have 26 courses. The closest course was in a tiny village of Postolowo, 35 miles from the major city of Gdansk. It was a pleasent modern course, about 5 years old, built by former GCA contributor Jeremy Turner. They charged me $100(US) for a round on the weekend; I was one of perhaps 10 people on the course. So what does this say? The developer had to build his course 35 miles from civilization in the middle of nowhere (land costs?). He still needed to charge $100 per round to make it work, which excludes most Polish nationals. The courses primary customers are Germans or Swedes who come for an extended holidays and enjoy "having the course to themselves". Aquiring prime coastal property would surely have made this project much more expensive; probably pricing them right out of the market.

[Dan Kelly]

There are enormous quantities of beautiful, cheap seaside land left in places like Nebraska.

The sea is gone, but we shouldn't let that bother us.

[Phil Benedict]

Jay,

Perhaps this is a bias on my part, but I think golf fits better in certain countries than others.  To me, it fits best in Britain, Ireland and former British colonies (including Canada, Australia and New Zealand).  

I kind of agree with this sentiment.  Are there any top 100 courses outside of the English speaking world?

[Jin Kim]

I kind of agree with this sentiment.  Are there any top 100 courses outside of the English speaking world?

Not as judged by those from the English speaking world.

[tonyt]

Without getting into the logistics of viability, travelling around many sections of the Australian coast, I doubt you would struggle to find any less than about 15,000 very appropriate and exciting large sites for high quality seaside golf courses.

Away from the ocean, I play a lot of golf outside the city, and most two hour drives pass at least a few and in some cases multitudes of great sites. If I had a stupid amount of money and selfishly built myself a dozen 18, 36 or 54 hole facilities dotted around my home state alone, using a worldwide pick of archies, I'd single handedly change the face of the Australian top 30-40 and to a lesser extent the world top 200 odd courses.

[Jim Thompson]

Jim:  Any ideas where?

I've got a good six specific sites on my short list just in Michigan.  I know of the sites others are contemplating as well in places across the globe, some general & some specific. As always, their secrets remain safe with me. Who knows, someone might want to built an affordable one and need some help.

Cheers!

JT

[Tom_Doak]

Jay:

In the past year I have talked to people who are actively looking at sandy coastal sites in South America [several places], Mexico, Ireland, Scotland, South Africa, and Western Australia.  I've also heard about projects under development in Iceland and Turkey and Chile.  As you say, there's plenty of coastline left.

The question is always whether someone will let you develop it.  It doesn't really matter what country:  the more remote it is, the fewer people there are to object, and the more likely you could get the permits.  Europe (even Ireland and the UK) is especially difficult now, because of the population density.  But some of these courses will happen over the next few years, and a lot of them will be terrific.

That's my niche and I love having it, but realistically, it is still only 1-2% of the total golf market.  Having the majority of architects build realistically priced courses on good but not spectacular sites closer to home is the real future of the game.

[Bob_Huntley]

A number of Northern California GCA'ers have mentioned that just one mile from the Monterey City limits, there are sand dunes and grounds for at least a dozen fantastic sites for some exciting courses. Would the citizens of Sand City and Marina vote for such development, you bet. Who would oppose the projects? You guessed it, the California Coastal Commission, the most perverse public body ever foisted upon an unsuspecting public.

When it comes to the effete conquering the the will of the hoi polloi, just mention the CCC.

Bob

[Craig Sweet]

How much affordable golf is available along the Monterey coast?

[Bob_Huntley]

Craig,

A great deal of the coastal dune land is the property of the cities of Seaside and Marina, a gift from the US Department of Defense and the Army. Most of this land was a part of the Fort Ord Complex.

The cities involved could, with the proper financial and envronmental advice, create another golfing strand, a la Myrtle Beach, albeit with a number of reasonable constraints.

Bob

[A_Clay_Man]

Bob, It was my impression that the state of California parks dept, is also involved with a good chunk of the dunesland west of the fort and Marina.


It's a very interesting section of coast. One where I doubt any concensus could be had on any subject. Especially golf.  I knew two of the few who were rangers and the caretakers for all the beaches from Seaside to Moss Landing. If there was any incidient at all, it took a crew of cartographers to determine who had jurisdiction. Each jurisdiction regretting any verdict that made them the lucky ones who had to fill out all the paper work.

Jay, Your premise is something near and dear to me. It brought me to search the web when I found this website. It's that little saying about what everybody says. No good land left blah blah blah. I actually have never heard anyone say that, other than saying everybody says it. Have you?
I just thought it was an excuse for building mediocre golf, if'n  I ever heard anyone say it.

[Jack_Marr]

You know, not every seaside property should be turned into a golf course, especially if it's a private course or a terribly expensive course that few can enjoy.  

Tim - you're absolutely right. The coastline can be used for other things. There's lots of undeveloped linksland and coastal sites in Ireland, but I hope they aren't all developed into golf courese.

Of course, it would be nice if the right ones are.

[Bob_Huntley]

Adam,

I stand corrected, however, I believe that the two cities mentioned can and do have a most definte say in their ultimate usage.

Bob

[Mike Benham]

Adam,

I stand corrected, however, I believe that the two cities mentioned can and do have a most definte say in their ultimate usage.

Bob

After the military completes the clean up of spent and unspent shell casings, fragments and the like ... it would bring new meaning to the term "bunker explosion" ...

[John Foley]

Bob & Adam,

Could you actually build a course on the west side of RT 1 north of Montery & Seaside? Those dunes look dramamtic and they also look very un-stable. I would think their movement & erosion I would cause havoc w/ a course and it's maintenace proceedures over the years.

John

[Bob_Huntley]

John,

I have only been around them for forty years, thay look the same now as they did then.

Bob

[Anthony Butler]

Phil Benedict
I kind of agree with this sentiment.  Are there any top 100 courses outside of the English speaking world?

Not as judged by those from the English speaking world.

Morfontaine outside of Paris has been in the top 50 for the last 20 years. Some great golf holes  + a clubhouse that features the worst pro shop and the best after-round lunch ever. Some great coastline in all parts of france for seaside courses.