How would you feel if you had to play out of this bunker?

[Scott Coan]

Just had a look at the back of the scorecard from this course and it states:

"Please respect our course and:
          replace divots
          repair plug marks
          tidy bunkers"

Yet it was abundantly clear that the course itself was not following it's own directive and not tidying the bunkers and as a result of this, nobody was because it was so futile.

My first couple of entries I tidied up after myself but then I recognized the futility once I realized I could not tell where to stop.

It's all well and good to say you hit it in there so just go in and hit it back out but to have to repeatedly attempt to hit out of 4 inch deep craters becomes a little absurd.  It really was akin to having the bunkers staked as water hazards, except you are not allowed to drop outside of a bunker so you had to try and find a spot that was not crater-filled.  That was if you decided to take a drop, which I probably should have.  Instead I made the futile attempt to hack out and nudged the ball forward a foot or two closer to the lip.

It is very hard for me to imagine that any of you would enjoy this type of play.  

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick....I'm not sure you and I do agree on this issue....

I find "bunkers"...aka "sand traps" to be un-natural....unless they are naturally occuring on the parrticular piece of land occupided by the golf course....otherwise, they are as out of place as a baseball cap on George Washington's head....why manufacture "natural" elements?  I have seen huge, gangly, ugly bunkers on golf courses in locations where you couldn't find a spec of sand within 100 sq. miles...

They are pretty much like "links" style courses in Alabama....or silicon boobs....

[Larry_Keltto]

My first reaction to the photo was: "Looks like nice sand -- much better than the hardpan in the bunkers at my home club."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig Sweet,

Other than a few special locations, bunkers are not natural, yet, they provide a strategic element which the golfer must consider, strategize and negotiate.

They create interest.

They are an integral component of architecture and golf in America today, irrespective of the location of the golf course.

Tees are unnatural, greens are unnatural and fairways are unnatural, yet when combined with bunkers and other hazards, natural and/or unnatural they form an ideal playing field for the game of golf.

Without these unnatural features a golf course would be monotonous.

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick..they are un-natural....they are imitation (for the most part) of something that was never on the piece of land...they are left over baggage from an era when golf was played along sand dunes...

Do you think an interesting, challenging, golf course could be built without bunkers?  A large grass swale in place of a sand filled bunker would be just as strategic, just as difficult to negotiate...especially if the grass was deep and thick...

[RJ_Daley]

So do we begin the guessing game?

I'll guess CK?

I have seen bunkers like this, not too tiddied up after by the previous occupant or victim.  I guess it is just a club or regional culture thing.  As long as it is about the same for everyone in an ongoing competition, I figure it is not unfair.  If the day begins with the bunker raked in a tournament, and after several groups through, looks like this, a pox on the culture and etiquette of the course users.  If you are just competing within your own 4some, and each of you has an equal chance to experience the misfortune of getting in there, I don't think it is unfair. As long as the condition is static for you and your playing companions-competitors.

[Troy Alderson]

Scott,

Play it as it lies and adjust your game to the course.  If that is the way the bunkers are maintained then so be it.  You may have picked the wrong subject to debate, along with trees, wooden tees, and junk on the course.  Your point is well taken, but if you did not like the shape of the bunker then rake it out or file a complaint with the management.

So, what golf course is it?  We all want to know.

Troy

[David Ober]

What I'd like to know is: Are the bunkers ever raked or groomed? If so, that just doesn't seem right to me. Those playing in the morning just after raking have a HUGE advantage over those who play in the afternoon when the bunkers are full of craters.

[Jon Wiggett]

Scott,

its interresting that we all moan about the ball flying too far and that the great courses are not what they you to be and hasards often being made obsolete but as soon as we meet something that makes the course alittle harder we through our arms in the air in despair and cry foul, its UNFAIR. Don't forget in the good old days bunkers were not rake, raking is just another modernisation of the game in order to pamper to the professionals on the tour.
Firstly, its golfers and not greenkeepers that make the footprints in bunkers and if golfers did their part bunkers would rarely require more than the occasional edging or weeding. Secondly, making a stand on how lazy or negligent the greenkeepers are in fullfilling their obligations first but then saying after two or three bunkers I wasn't motivated any more doesn't back up your conviction in this article.
I take it when you pass through an area that is a bit run down and has graffiti on the walls you find yourself adding a little bit to as well. Shame on you.
Sorry if this comes across a bit harsh it isn't meant to be.

[Ryan Farrow]

Patrick, do you think the Furrow rake will be introduced for the 07 Open? What do you think of the possibility? Especially with the great job they did with tree removable, it will be a perfect time to restore Oakmont to the way it was at the clubs first US Open.

[Scott Coan]

Firstly, its golfers and not greenkeepers that make the footprints in bunkers and if golfers did their part bunkers would rarely require more than the occasional edging or weeding. Secondly, making a stand on how lazy or negligent the greenkeepers are in fullfilling their obligations first but then saying after two or three bunkers I wasn't motivated any more doesn't back up your conviction in this article.
I take it when you pass through an area that is a bit run down and has graffiti on the walls you find yourself adding a little bit to as well. Shame on you.
Sorry if this comes across a bit harsh it isn't meant to be.

Jon, my point was that most golfers will make an attempt to return a bunker to the state in which they found it.  So when one enters a bunker with some reasonable modicum of playability, then they will tend to restore said bunker to that same state.  Conversely,  when one enters a bunker and finds it completely pock-marked with footprint craters, they tend to feel a bit silly smoothing out their small disruption when the rest of the bunker looks like it has just held the Kentucky Derby.

Nowhere did I state that the greenkeepers were lazy or negligent.  What I did say was, "The staff at this course obviously were not maintaining the bunkers themselves (or if they do they certainly had not done so in many, many days...)".

This is a simple statement of fact as I was in the first group off on the day and this was the state in which most of the bunkers were in.

 

[ForkaB]

One of the most interesting things about bunkers that are properly raked is that you can get out of them in a number of ways and can judge how to actually play the shot based on your own risk/reward profile.  Requiring bunkers to be properly raked also promotes one of the central points of golf etiquette--you leave the course in a better state than how you found it.

If bunkers are not raked, etiquette takes a dive and strategy for the golfer becomes unnecessarily and boringly constricted.  You might as well replace the bunker with a pond, as they did at Garden City........

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott,

When I saw the titleof this thread, I thought you might be
talking about having to play out of this one (of which this
course has no rakes, IIRC):

[Dan Kelly]

One of the most interesting things about bunkers that are properly raked is that you can get out of them in a number of ways and can judge how to actually play the shot based on your own risk/reward profile.  Requiring bunkers to be properly raked also promotes one of the central points of golf etiquette--you leave the course in a better state than how you found it.

Bingo.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Dan

And while were at it.........

In addition to not raking bunkers, lets:

--not replace or re-seed our divots
--not repair our own spike marks
--not repair ball marks on greens
--randomly fart in our opponents' backwsings

Boy, would that be really manly men's golf!  Some of us would be in hog heaven!

[Tom Huckaby]

One can usually be very safe in stating this when he is trying to be serious and not playing the role of the contrarian... but...

Rich is right.

Etiquette and the principal of leaving the course better than you found it trumps all other issues.  If the hazard is a bunker (as defined under the rules), it ought to be raked.

If it's natural waste area, ie unprepared, than leave it as is.

Seems pretty simple to me....

TH

[Garland Bayley]

Since Donald Ross would have us send a cavalry troop on horses through the bunkers before play, it is our duty to leave the bunker more messy after playing out of it than it was before. It is only proper ettiquette.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick..they are un-natural....they are imitation (for the most part) of something that was never on the piece of land...they are left over baggage from an era when golf was played along sand dunes...

You might get some argument from golfers playing Sand Hills, Prairie Dunes and a number of other clubs in areas where bunkers are a natural part of the landscape

Do you think an interesting, challenging, golf course could be built without bunkers?  

In general, NO.

A large grass swale in place of a sand filled bunker would be just as strategic, just as difficult to negotiate...especially if the grass was deep and thick...

Hunting for innumerable lost balls would be a joy, hence pace of play would be compromised.

Bunkers add interest that few features can match.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, do you think the Furrow rake will be introduced for the 07 Open? What do you think of the possibility? Especially with the great job they did with tree removable, it will be a perfect time to restore Oakmont to the way it was at the clubs first US Open.

Ryan,

No, I don't think it will be introduced.

In an age of perfect grooming it's introduction would be viewed as radical.

In addition, it would cause culture shock amongst the PGA Tour Pros.

[Jim Thompson]

If it's a fairway bunker I think its fine, but I'd prefer to not see it near a green unless it were a couse where only one side and never the front where bunkered.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

Friar's Head, Pine Valley and Sand Hills don't have rakes that allow the bunkers to be perfectly groomed and I don't think that speaks poorly with respect to the etiquette of golfers who play there.

GCGC tends to have a number of pot and steep faced bunkers where extraction under the best of conditions is difficult.
If rakes were absent, with the culture of the membership, I don't think you'd find footprints or deep gouges a problem.
Would there be some occassional transgressions, sure, but, for the most part I think the members would leave the surface of the bunker in reasonably good shape.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

You seem to be a little "off" today.

I doubt Rich has any complaints against those very few courses at which rakes are not provided, nor is he commenting on the etiquette or lack thereof at the courses you mentioned, nor would he be surprised that the membership at GCGC takes good care of their bunkers and follows proper etiquette and would do so sans rakes.

At Sand Hills, as you know the wind takes care of raking issues - footprints don't last for long given the nature of the sand and how hard it blows.  They don't need rakes.  I'd guess it's that way at Friar's Head, and at Pine Valley they equal the "culture" you mention at GCGC, and have a LONG tradition of following such.

But do you really believe that the fine culture at GCGC/Pine Valley is typical world-wide?

Perhaps I am cynical but ban rakes and you'd have bunker chaos at far far far more courses than those that would work out in the positive.  It's just hard for me to believe the "leave the course better than you found it" ideal would continue to exist.

And I do believe that's an ideal that trumps the other issues here.

Man you need to play a few munis.  


 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

That's one of the major problems with golf.

It's lost its wonderful culture and traditions.
It's trending from a gentlemen's game to an environment akin to Shakespeare's pit

The "ME" generation walks up the faces of a bunkers, are on cell phones constantly, and have little regard for other golfers.
I have no doubt that your muni comment is on the mark.

The better "junior" programs teach kids about the etiquette and traditions of the game first.  Then they transition to the play of the game.  For years youngsters played with adults and learned how to conduct themselves properly and how to take care of the golf course.  That protocol seems to have been lost along the way.

I applauded Ken Bakst for trying to restore that wonderful culture at Friar's Head.

I also recall stories of John Arthur Brown, the President of Pine Valley, arranging for an inconsiderate guests early departure.  I also applauded his efforts to preserve the culture and traditions that make golf such a wonderful game.

Unfortunately, today, in many cases, it's all about the money.
Hence, enforcement is difficult to impossible because clubs need the revenue and/or members, irrespective of their respect for the game and their fellow golfers.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

As in the other thread, I agree with every word.  We just seem to come to different conclusions...

I don't see how removing rakes will suddenly make better golf citizens.  And yes, typically I am a glass half full guy when it comes to this game.  But man I play a lot of golf with the people you mention, and at courses that get treated like personal dumping grounds.  Remove the rakes and well... it seems to me more negative occurs than positive.

TH

[ForkaB]

Rich Goodale,

Friar's Head, Pine Valley and Sand Hills don't have rakes that allow the bunkers to be perfectly groomed and I don't think that speaks poorly with respect to the etiquette of golfers who play there.

GCGC tends to have a number of pot and steep faced bunkers where extraction under the best of conditions is difficult.
If rakes were absent, with the culture of the membership, I don't think you'd find footprints or deep gouges a problem.
Would there be some occassional transgressions, sure, but, for the most part I think the members would leave the surface of the bunker in reasonably good shape.

Huzzah! Hooray! for those courses and their stewards!  They are still misguided, for the reasons I mentioned above and you have chosen not to respond to.  Next thing you know they'll be bringing back the stymie!

Rich

PS--In case you haven't noticed, GCGC is not the only place in the world with steep faced pot bunkers.  The one's I play play much more interestingly when they are properly raked, again for the reasons stated above.  In case you still don't get it, more options = more interest, all other things being equal.

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