Central Park a nice place for a course

[John_D._Bernhardt]

what is the USGA doing? does anyonebesides me see that 16 million spent this way is a greater waste than anything spent on Rees.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

JB

Could you please elaborate on your cryptic message?  Surely the USGA has not awarded the 2010 Open to Central Park and hired Rees to "modernize" Olmstead's design?

......and yet, Coore and Crenshaw and "The Boys" and all their camp followers, now maybe that would work.............

[A_Clay_Man]

Rich- I believe JB is refering to the purchase of the old Russian Tee room, by the USGA, reportedly for a golf museum.

But I may be mistaken...

[John Bernhardt]

Yes oh wise man from the 4 corners. the purchase of the Russian Tea Room is the latest move by the rulers of the american golf universe. I still say the view at TOC is better. I really cannot see how the game benifits from this purchase or the cost to maintain this facility.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Actually, CP is about 850 acres. Perhaps it would be a good place for a golf course. How about if we convince the city to give us 75 acres for a nice 9 holer? That still leaves 775 for everybody else.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Jeff

Great idea.  And, maybe the USGA will let us use the Tee (sic) Room for a clubhouse!

[John_Conley]

Jeff:

Is nothing sacred!?!

You sound like me when I was on north coast of Ulster, near the Giant's Causeway.  Everywhere I looked I envisioned Condos - waterfront condos.  With a golf course wrapping its way down the hill and somehow using the actual basalt columns for a waterfront greensite.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Bernhardt,

How quickly we forget.

Perhaps, if you view the move to New York City in the context of 9/11, it might help you gain a better understanding.

The current USGA Headquarters and museum are off the beaten track, in remote Far Hills, New Jersey.

Prior to moving to NJ, the USGA Headquarters and museum were in New York City.

New York City, its businesses, its residents, commuters and visitors all suffered terribly from the effects of 9/11.

Some feel a patriotic obligation to recommit to New York City.

I think the awarding of the 2012 Olympics is evidence of that.

Far more visitors pass by 57th street in a day, than in a month at the Far Hills location.

I happen to feel that the move by the USGA is a grand and patriotic gesture that will benefit New York City, golf and the USGA.

Sometimes you have to look at an issue on a more global basis.

[Dave_Miller]

Patrick:

Will the headquarters actually be moved to the NYC location?

Or is it just to be a museum.

If the headquarters and museum are going to move I think this is a great idea.  There will be a lot more visibilty for the entire game.

Best,

Dave

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Miller,

My understanding is that the Headquarters will not move, merely some departments and part of the museum, but who knows what the future holds ?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Pat, your more global view is not necesarily mine. I would prefer the USGA in another part of the country, which has year round or close to year round golf, as part of a large golf complex of 5 to 10 courses that showcase the game with its museum, testing and courses giving a real hands vision of the values of the game. I believe NY will be fine and while the city suffered greatly as did so many people, it is a great city with incredible resiliency and of course the feds are pumping in billions

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Bernhardt,

I seem to recollect that a few years ago the USGA was looking at a variety of sites around the country, I'm fuzzy on the details and sites in the running but for whatever the reasons they chose to select and stay in Far Hills.

What sites do you think would be desireable ?

[ChipOat]

The USGA was seriously close to moving their HQ to Atlanta some years ago for several of the reasons discussed above.

As to getting involved in a golf course?  Not their style.

[Lou Duran]

I once saw an aerial view of Central Park, possibly taken from the southeast, and I swear I could see the corridors for a couple dogleg holes.  I asked a local (NYC) GCAer whether there had been a course there at one time and he looked at me like I was nuts.  It looks like the topography and location would be perfect for a course, though several million residents would have a major problem with this use.  What is wrong with the USGA's current headquarters?  Is it the case of too much change in its pocket demanding some use?  How about building a comprehensive headquarters/museum near a large population center with a prototype US Open course open to all visitors?  I suspect that Rees Jones and/or Tom Fazio would offer their work pro-bono, and all the suppliers would cut deals to feature their state-of-the-art products.  And a rich landowner may be persuaded to donate the land at an  inflated price and write it off as a charitable contribution (if the USGA qualifies as a charitable organization).  On the other hand, why would the USGA want to get into the golf business?  It's just too much work.

[John Bernhardt]

Pat, I have been to Far Hills which is not on the way to anywhere for a Louisiana man. Naturally, I went to see the USGA. I loved it. But I would be hard pressed to recommend for anyone to go there, unless they were already in the area visiting family or friends. It is easy to say California or Florida for the obvious weather and tourism reasons. I am playing into Lou's hands but outside Dallas or around Nashville or Atlanta, or even just north of New Orleans would be close enought to a major tourism city with land that has character and very close to year round golf. Actually the area near Orlando where World Woods is has the good land and incredible tourism potential. I feel the USGA should bring the values of the game to mainstream america for it to grow and prosper.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Lou,

If you can talk The City of New York into giving us land in Central Park, I will talk the NY Athletic Club into using the facility on Central Park South as a clubhouse. They missed the boat with Winged Foot 75+ years ago, so I am sure they will go for it this time.

[Matt_Ward]

John D. Bernhardt:

"I feel the USGA should bring the values of the game to mainstream america for it to grow and prosper."

John -- with all due respect -- last I checked but New Jersey is not out of the "mainstream" as you indicated. A good bit of the effort being put forward by First Tee is being put into motion for golf promotion in urban areas such as Newark. Help me to understand your comments about the "mainstream."

Look, I'm not advocating that Far Hills is akin to the NFL's Canton location or Cooperstown for baseball or Springfield, Mass for basketball, but the facility is elegant and well done without being swallowed up by blatant commercial promotions of all types and sizes. Also it's just minutes off a major Interstate (287) and it connects easily to a range of travel sites in and around the Northeast.

Lou Duran:

There was talk long ago when the USGA did move from the Big Apple to the Jersey suburbs that a golf course would be built and then used as the annual site of the US Open. It never happened for a host of reasons. The most important one being that America has a number of outstanding courses and that the big hitters within the USGA have always lobbied for prospective clubs. Having one permanent site would completely fly in the face of what has always been done and you are quite correct -- why do it?

I agree with Pat -- having a NYC location builds visibility and if the Big Apple were to land the Oympics for 2012 it would be another plus in promoting the game among all the other nations that will participate. In fact -- it's quite likely that golf will be in the Olympics by that time.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Matt, I loved the facility but i am a golfer. It is great for that part of the northeast. I am not down on the current location or facilty, I just think we are at a point where the game can jump up and grap alot of middle class america. However the USGA needs to provide an or lead by example. A larger complex with several courses would help do that. I just do not see a museum on central park or in somewhat rural NJ doing that for people in ohio, kentucky, texas new Mexico etc. TOC and St. Andrews does that.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

John

I'm with you.  As good as is the content is and as friendly as the staff at the Far Hills facility are, the message it sends out from its location is all about what golf used to be in the 50's and 60's--private, out of the way, exclusive, low key, a game for ladies and gentlemen.  To paraphrase a line on another thread:  "Where's the Golf Course!"

They "should" decamp to Pinehurst, or some such other place.  I wouldn't even mind if they "privatised" the USGA to put it on an equal footing with the R&A.  Have an international club for the great and good (and a few of their most affluent contributors).  Call it the R&nsA (Republican and not so Ancient Golf Club).

I'm all for bringing golf to the masses, but I very much doubt that the Russian Tee Room redux will do that.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Thank you Rich for putting my good thoughts into words. It is a shame when a Stanford education shows over my LSU days in the simple discusion of democratic values and golf.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Oh and you ask why i am up in the middle of the night. I am up because it is 4 hours till my plane leaves for lexington to help my Tigers beat those Kentucky cats saturday. It is time to be a Tiger and let Huckster know to wake up it is our time of the year.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

John

In my occasional forays onto the web to see how Stanford is doing, I have been depressed--but what do you expect when you hire a head coach from Dartmouth!

Remind me again how that "Tiger Bait!  Tiger Bait!" chant goes........

BTW--what is this election system you have in La.?  3 Repos and 2 Demos running for the same Senate seat, and now a runoff.  Haven't youse guys heard of Primaries!

[Matt_Ward]

John & Rich:

I guess the best place for the USGA headquarters may be deep in the heart of Kansas to be "politically correct."  

I think what both of you are missing is this: golf's development in America started in the Northeast. That's not a bias or even a preference -- it's a fact. From the private clubs, yes, to the opening of Van Cortlandt Park -- America's first public course in 1895.

The premise of all of the other major Hall of Fames is to be located in the place where the genesis of their sports happened. Given your argument who cares if Naismith or discovered basketball at a YMCA in Springfield -- why not move it to the heartland in Indiana, Kansas or Kentucky? Heck, why not move the pyramids from Egypt and center them in some sort of convenient "theme" park as one sees in such recent efforts in Orlando and San Antonio, etc.

I don't see NJ being out of the "mainstream of America," but being a fundamental part of the development of golf's history. And, if that means people can "discover' that wonderful history in visiting a museum that speaks to the game's development in the very place it happened so be it.  The museum, located in Far Hills, and possibly shifting to NYC, is a national celebration -- it is not a Northeast directive as some may infer.

John, I am a golfer like yourself. I celebrate the game -- but I also think one cannot divorce oneself from the history of the golf in this country. I believe a location in NYC if properly handled and developed can do that very well.

Rich, the spin you put on through the location of Far Hills is a very self-limiting perspective. I don't view golf as being some sort of all-encompassing commerciallly driven game as one sees in just about every other sports -- but golf. The elegant and tastefully done location in Far Hills speaks to a game of social interaction and how golf can be valuable part for recreation and friendship for all. If you ascribe that to a very narrow take I can understand that, but respectfully disagree. I believe the USGA's desire to use NYC as a location makes perfect sense in expanding the game to even more people provided it is done in a manner that speaks to golf's past and more importantly how golf can grow in the 21st century.

[A_Clay_Man]

It just struck me why it took so long for the usga to move to the big apple... Just prudence, I know I wouldn't move there till I had close to 300 mil banked.

It seems that if the motivation was to bring golf to the masses and uninitiated, they would've selected some area where future growth is possible. NOT some megalopolis where golf is already well grounded.

C'mon, guys, how are we to emulate, respect and protect the field if our so called leadership is interested in building non-playing monuments to itself?

On the bright side....maybe this loosening of the purse strings shows that they are less worried about litigation and can focus on building thier own venues for the super pre-madonnas they are creating.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Matt

Come on.  You are usually refreshingly open minded and honest on this site.  Think about the fact that the USGA is located in Far hills, NY, for a bit.

1.  Are the NFL offices in Canton?  The NBA in Springfield?  MLB in Cooperstown?   No, they've got museums there.  End of story.

2.  What is the significance of Far Hills in our golfing history?  I don't know the answer, but I would guess that some high mucky muck from the USGA just happened to live in North-Central Jersey when they built that HQ, or maybe just belong to Baltusrol or Pine Valley, or both.

3.  If you really want to go to the core, put the museum and the USGA in South Carolina, where, by most reliable accounts, golf actually started in the country, many years before the "Apple Tree Gang."  Or, if you want to stay in the Northest where you can only play golf 7-8 months a year, at least go to Bethpage!

4.  Or (NEW IDEA ALERT!!!  HOLD ONTO THOSE DRY MARTINIS OUT THERE!!!) maybe take that 16 million and use it to send a travelling museum/clinic in a bus around the country, bringing golf to people that might never have a chance to really see it.  Park that bus outside of Augusta on Washington Road, or in East St. Louis, or maybe just even in the sandhills of Nebraska and I think you'd get one hell of a lot more bang for your buck that some hoity-toity, "Shall we go to MOMA, the Guggenheim or the Golf Musuem today Clarissa?" sort of place.

Just my opinion, of course.