10th @ Winged Foot West Article

[Mike_Sweeney]

With the author's permission, I thought people might be interested in this Golf Tips article by Tom Ferrell and Mark Fine.

http://www.watervilleresearch.com/images/pulpit.pdf

I will say that the updated hole would probably move up on Mr Huckaby's WF Par 3 list. When did 190 yards become a "short Hole"?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I haven't really seen anyone mention the fact that players will be teeing off on this par 3 as their first hole due to the split tee system now used for the first two days.  It is an exacting tee shot which should prove even more challenging for the first shot of the national championship.

[John Kavanaugh]

What the hell is that house doing there...Does the club own it or is it a private residence.  How many other houses are so intrusive..

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

John,

It is a private residence.  That's the house that Hogan referred to when he said #10 is like "hitting a 4 iron into some guy's bedroom".

[mike_malone]

 I think there should be a bit more receptivenes to this green to make it "great". It borders on "goofy".

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

You've played it once.  Try not to make conclusive statements based on one visit.

[mike_malone]

 Why wouldn't you get all the information you need in one visit? Certainly there are subleties you miss but I observed that entire green since I was told of its greatness.

  I prefer #3 at Merion which is a terror but with more receptiveness. I prefer # 12 at Ballybunion as another terror with more receptiveness. These are two.

   Wayne,

     I would be interested in what is wrong with what I said. But I think this course prides itself on the speed and firmness of its greens. Well then  they need to realize that brings into question the receptiveness issue.

[Andy Scanlon]

I think there should be a bit more receptivenes to this green to make it "great". It borders on "goofy".

Mike:

What specifically, in its current state, makes you think the 10th green "borders on goofy"?  Admitedly, I've only played it a few times and am far from an expert, but I have found the 10th green to be a very fair.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike Sweeney thanks for posting.  I realize no one on this site reads Golf Tips Magazine and several people had asked me about posting the articles.  They are fun to do (this is our 8th one) and hopefully help educate golfers (at least get them thinking) who are not into golf architecture like we are on this site.   If we are going to spread the word about golf architecture, we need to preach to the non-converted.  This magazine gives us three pages every issue to talk about most any golf architecture topic we want and tie it in to how that understanding can help your game!!

I'd love to hear what guys on this site think of articles like this.  Any comments would be appreciated?  


Mike Malone,
Don't diss the hole just because of green speed.  If you did that, you probably wouldn't like a single hole at Oakmont or Augusta either  

[mike_malone]

 Andy,

   The ridge that runs through the green which is discernible in the photo is the main culprit in combination with the ridge coming off the front left bunker and the falloffs to the left and the right. It seems to shed balls. I think people are taken by the eruption of the green out of the land. It looks neat I'll agree but doesn't make it up to that top pedestal for me.

[mike_malone]

 Mark,

   When a course builds its reputation around how it maintains the course and it appears to stretch the design I think it needs to be criticized. I am not saying it sucks. I'm saying it is on the edge at its maintained speed and firmness.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mayday,

Don't you think the pros will be able to hold an 8 iron on that green with few problems..

[Andy Scanlon]

Mike:

How do you feel about the 3rd green in comparison to the 10th?

[mike_malone]

 I look forward to watching that. I will pay attention to the pin placements now. But golf courses are for several levels of capability not just pros. WFW isn't a TPC course.

[mike_malone]

 Andy,

  It is goofier.

[John Kavanaugh]

I look forward to watching that. I will pay attention to the pin placements now. But golf courses are for several levels of capability not just pros. WFW isn't a TPC course.

WFW ain't afternoon tea either...

[Andy Scanlon]

Andy,

  It is goofier.

I knew you'd say that.  

[mike_malone]

 John,

   Of  all of the highly regarded courses I have played WFW seems to depend more on the maintenance to prop up its "brutal" image. When you played there did you find that to be the case?

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

You talked of the receptiveness of the green.  This implies maintenance and not architecture.  You cannot judge the playability of a hole based on its maintenance practice on one visit.

If you are talking about the architecture of the hole, I don't understand how it could ever be described as goofy.  I think it is a great par 3 hole but to me it is not over the top in any design manner.

I also think you do not understand the ideal maintenance meld concept at all.  You seem to think it is just to prop up a brutal image of the course.  Play WFW from the correct tees and I think you might be using your imagination and strategy a lot more than if it were soft and receptive.  Its a better game and you better get used to it, that is the exact right conditioning for your own course.  I hope they are able to maintain it that way and you appreciate the enhanced effects.

[mike_malone]

  Wayne,


    Golf courses are made to be played. So, the architecture comes alive through the choices golfers make during the round. Do you think Tillinghast designed WFW so that  a pro in a major championship would layup everyday on a par three?

  Is that bad design or incorrect maintenance?


      For the most part good maintenance goes practically unnoticed . It enhances the architecture. But sometimes bad maintenance hurts the architecture.

     WFW seems to be ,for me, in a special class where the maintenance supports an image of "toughness".  

     This appears to me to compromise the design to SOME extent. It is important because the course is at the very top in rankings.

          I think the history of the course and its reputation affect people's perceptions.

   I just play the course and come up with impressions.


    For the record I decided being long was my best option here. I did that and hit a good chip; I don't remember whether the putt went in but quite a few did that day.

[Mark_Fine]

Mayday,
I now realize you don't like Winged Foot but do you like the article and the concept of how to address the "short" holes?

[Dan Kelly]

I'd love to hear what guys on this site think of articles like this.  Any comments would be appreciated?  

Mark --

It is a rare occasion when I don't want to re-edit, in whole or in part, an article I've read.

It is a very rare occasion when I don't want to re-edit a golf article I've read.

It is an extremely rare occasion when I don't want to remove a sports-article lede that talks about Greek mythology.

It is an extraordinarily rare occasion when I don't want to remove (or radically truncate, while crying out in pain) an extended-metaphor lede referring to Odysseus and the Sirens -- particularly in an article about golf-course architecture.

You guys have achieved all of these occasions for me. Good work.

Dan

[Mark_Fine]

Dan,
Tom and I will take that as the ultimate compliment, thank you!!   I hope people who get the magazine read the article and feel as you do.   Maybe later I'll post a few others to see what the group thinks.  I think Mayday would enjoy the one on trees  

[Dan Kelly]

Dan,
Tom and I will take that as the ultimate compliment, thank you!!   I hope people who get the magazine read the article and feel as you do.   Maybe later I'll post a few others to see what the group thinks.  I think Mayday would enjoy the one on trees  

Mark --

The bad news is: Almost no one ever feels as I do!

I think of my favorite E.B. White line often: "I am a member of a party of one."

But it's still a good article!

Dan

[Mark_Fine]

Dan,
You might be a member of a party of one but you are the most important member in that party so your vote of approval is important