Fazio course for Bandon?

[Paul Payne]

I just read a short interview with Mike Keiser in Golf Connoisseur magazine. He talked about the Bandon development and the architects he has worked with (Doak is a poet by the way).

Then discussion turned towards development of a fourth (inland fron the Dunes) or possibly even a fifth course (on the sheep ranch land), At which point he was asked "which architects would you like to work with?". He ticked off a few names ending with ".....and Tom Fazio. I think Fazio is a genius.".

Wouldn't that give the GCA discussion group much to chat about.

[Paul Jones]

I hope they will not build on the sheep ranch.  That was one of the greatest days I had playing golf.

[TEPaul]

"Wouldn't that give the GCA discussion group much to chat about."

Paul:

It sure would--not the least reason being if Fazio has the opportunity to work for Mike Keiser at Bandon and he does his same old, same old, he, TomF, will have absolutely no excuse left!

As some of the Merion contingent are fond of saying;

"It's not about the money, it's about the money."

[Tim Pitner]

I really hope that doesn't happen.  Give someone with a lower profile a chance to make their mark.  We already know what Fazio can and can't do.  Paul, who were the other architects that Keiser listed?  About six weeks until I get my first look at Sheep Ranch.  Can't wait.

[TEPaul]

"We already know what Fazio......can't do."

Peter:

Are you absolutely sure about that?  

I have a sneaking suspicion Fazio could do almost anything---if he wanted to.

[wsmorrison]

I agree with Tim.  The place is a destination spot already.  Will adding Fazio appreciably add to the visitors?  Or another way, will having a Fazio induce people that might not want to go to Bandon to take the plunge?  Maybe so, I am not in a position to know the answer.  If Keiser thinks Fazio is a genius, and he certainly is the highest profile architect today, then he has his reasons for wanting to work with him.  It would be fascinating to see how it would work out.  But I'd like to see a newer talent do something that would help their career.  Maybe a competition of sorts to design on a predetermined site.  That would be cool.

[Tim Pitner]

If I'm Peter, are you Paul?

My point is really not to bash Mr. Fazio (I've only played one Fazio course--Osprey at Kiawah--it was pretty standard resort stuff), but to suggest that his design philosophies don't mesh very well with Bandon, in my opinion.  Fazio's designed scores of courses, some are better than others, and his range has been pretty well defined.  I hope Mr. Keiser was just being diplomatic.

[John Kavanaugh]

The only thing I would ask would be that Fazio design the course without ever having played the other three courses...Kinda Nicklausesque..

[Paul Payne]

Tim,

The exact exchange was this;

GC: "What architects would you like to work with?"

MK: "Steve Smeyers, Brian Silva, Mikke Devries, and Tom Fazio. I think Fazio is a genius."

What I think is interesting would be how much Fazio might like to have his name associated with the Bandon development. It  may not matter if his course fit in well with the others, his name would forever be a part of that place.

I agree with you guys that even considering his good courses, his typical lush parkland style doesn't fit the Bandon style.

I have only played a handful of Fazio courses. I hated Osprey, bland and overdeveloped. I like the Frog (West of Atlanta).

What is interesting about the Frog is that it was the first stage of a major development that went bust, so there it sits, all alone in the middle of nowhere. It has a few shakey holes but most are very well executed with a few really strong holes.

As they have run tight on funds they have cut back slightly on the groundskeeping, not a lot, but just enough to take the lush edge off. In the end, I think the sort of tattered around the edges look, adds a bit to its charm and sharpens the holes a bit with firmer fairways and more errant bounces.

It does make me see that he can put together some good holes. In the end, when the development picks up steam again, the lushness and housing will certainly change that course forever.





 

[John Kavanaugh]

Aren't you guys just a little ashamed that you have been so easily brainwashed by this website...I would have given anything if I could have played the Bandon resort before I had taken the cool-aid.  It is even hard for me sometimes to believe what I really like..

[SL_Solow]

Trust Mike Keiser.  He conceived the  Bandon project at a time when nobody thought that the location made sense.  He selected architects for the first three courses and worked with them to create what many of us believe is the outstanding golf destination in the country.  If Mike believes that he can work with Fazio or anyone else to produce a first rate golf course, the evidence suggests that is exactly what he will get.  I agree with Tom Paul; I think Faziop is talented enough to produce whatever he chooses and if Mike Keiser were to select him and hold him to Keiser's usual standards, the result might be interesting indeed.  I suggest that we direct our angst to other topics and wait to see what Mike Keiser decides to do.

[PThomas]

well-stated Shelly

[Tim Pitner]

Aren't you guys just a little ashamed that you have been so easily brainwashed by this website...I would have given anything if I could have played the Bandon resort before I had taken the cool-aid.  It is even hard for me sometimes to believe what I really like..

No brainwashing has occurred with me.  I found this website after playing (and loving) Bandon and Pacific Dunes.  In fact, it was playing these courses that caused me to become more interested in architecture.  So, while I'm biased in favor of architects like Kidd and Doak, it isn't because of any groupthink on this website.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

You have been a member since March 8, 2006...Give it time.  btw...What do you think of Gil Hanse or Mike Devries..

[Tim Pitner]

Tim,

You have been a member since March 8, 2006...Give it time.  btw...What do you think of Gil Hanse or Mike Devries..

But, I was a lurker for a couple years before becoming a member.  I haven't played any Hanse or DeVries courses.  Based on photos of Boston Golf Club, Rustic Canyon and the Kingsley Club, I look upon Hanse and DeVries very favorably.  I wouldn't have any reservations if they were awarded a course at Bandon.  John, if you think this is the result of brainwashing, so be it.  My own view, however, is that I like the "minimalist school of design," if you can call it that.  

[Andy Doyle]

... I like the Frog (West of Atlanta).

What is interesting about the Frog is that it was the first stage of a major development that went bust, so there it sits, all alone in the middle of nowhere. It has a few shakey holes but most are very well executed with a few really strong holes.

As they have run tight on funds they have cut back slightly on the groundskeeping, not a lot, but just enough to take the lush edge off. In the end, I think the sort of tattered around the edges look, adds a bit to its charm and sharpens the holes a bit with firmer fairways and more errant bounces.

Paul:

I really enjoy playing at the Frog - one of my favorite courses in Atlanta (if you consider east Alabama part of Atlanta).  Not to hijack this thread (I'll start a new one if appropriate) - what do you think are the shaky holes at the Frog?

Andy

[TEPaul]

You know this thing I sometimes call "The Big World" theory---eg "golf and architecture is a great big thing and there's room in it for everyone----eg there should be something different out there to satisfy everyone"?

Maybe Mike Keiser is going to turn the golf and architecture at Bandon into his own "Big World" theory.

[PThomas]

You know this thing I sometimes call "The Big World" theory---eg "golf and architecture is a great big thing and there's room in it for everyone----eg there should be something different out there to satisfy everyone"?

Maybe Mike Keiser is going to turn the golf and architecture at Bandon into his own "Big World" theory.

if so, make sure you get a big discount there Tom!

[Joel_Stewart]

We continue to hash and rehash items on this board to the 10th degree.  Its well known Keiser has a deal for the 4th course with Mark Parsinen which is signed.  He does have a option to opt out if Mark cannot put the original Kingsbarn team together with Kyle Phillips.   Kyle has said he won't work with Mark again so the question is, will Keiser move forward with Mark and another architect, possibly Gil Hanse or opt out.

Having spoken with Keiser about this, I doubt that he would ever hire Fazio for anything.

[Tim Pitner]

Thanks Joel.  That's a very interesting situation which was not well-known to me, and I follow all things Bandon pretty closely (although I regret to say I haven't been introduced to Mr. Keiser).  

[Tom_Doak]

Joel:

Mike Keiser has worked with Tom Fazio in the past; Mike was a primary investor in The Glen Club in Chicago.  I believe that's why he included his compliment toward Fazio in the interview.

[Paul Payne]

Andy,

In regard to the Frog, which is my favorite Fazio course I've played to date. My feelings are these;

I love the opening 3 holes. Every one is all about placement and that can change with the pin location. In fact I really like the entire front nine.

The first odd hole I think is #6 (shortish downhill dogleg right). The tee shot is not long, but the fairway banks towards the bend so it is very difficult to play the ball out left enough to avoid the trees for a shot at the green. With a front pin you can play better out of the left rough.

I don't like #10 but maybe I just don't like straight holes. They do have drainage issues there as well.

Probably the one I think of most as being an afterthought is #15. It is a short uphill slight dolgleg left. The green is kind of cool being a small kidney bean, but the landing area just seems wrong. He provides a split fairway for the approach with a bunker dead center in front of the green. The problem is the landing area is not wide enough to use any of those features. It seems almost no matter where the pin is located you end up playing the same two shots. This just made it seem like an interesting hole to look at but wasn't well thought out.

Just my lowly and ameteurish opinion.

 

[Michael Dugger]

As others have surmised, I'm sure Tom Fazio could produce a quality golf course in Bandon.

Hell....I could.

The Glen Club looks quite nice.........from their website

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm not sure why Mr. Keiser wouldn't consider Tom Fazio for another Bandon course.  Would it really be such a terrible thing if Fazio were to build another World Wood Pine Barrens or Galloway National on the site?

[Dan Herrmann]

I may be way off base, but I think I saw the beginnings of fairways way out to the north of Pacific Dunes - cutouts thru the gorse.

Our caddies said it was the beginning of Pacific Trails.

I have no idea what I saw, but it sure looked like a nascent golf links.