Old Head and the Confidential Guide

[Andy Doyle]

Reading the Ireland section of my 1994 edition of the Confidential Guide and ran across this in the Gossip paragraph:

"I'm much more interested to see what happens at the Old Head of Kinsale, where I thought I was doing a golf course until the owner went for an untrained Irish designer in conjunction with legendary amateur Joe Carr -- the clifftop site is spectacular and unique but the contours aren't ideal for a golf course, and I wonder if they will be able to get the subtle parts right.  If they do, it will be a mandatory stop on the Irish itinerary; but most likely they won't ......"

I couldn't get past the gate the one time I've been by there (Nov of 2004), so I've not played the course.  Kinsale was a lovely town, but should I make the effort to get by there again to play the course?

How accurate was TD's prediction?

Is there an interesting story that can be told about the GCA selection process?





Andy

[SPDB]

I'd be curious how different the contours are than the cliff sections of Cape Kidnappers

[cary lichtenstein]

Like a beautiful dumb bonde, you are dying to play the course, it's drop dead stunning, and after u played it, ??

[Tim_Weiman]

Andy

I believe Tom's prediction was pretty accurate. Old Head is a spectacular place. The design team was focused on placing green sites by the cliffs, but I don't think they did much, if anything, interesting architecturally.

Everyone should visit Old Head at least once, but don't go thinking it is a place to study golf architecture.

SPDB:

Cape Kidnappers is very different from Old Head. There is far more movement in the land, both inland and near the cliffs.

[Kevin Pallier]

Andy

In one word = 'Overrated'

I can't believe they charge over 150 quid to play this course. You are certainly paying for the views because the course is average to say the least IMO.

I suggest you save your pennies and play some other courses in Ireland instead of making a stop at Old Head.

[Dan Moore]

I have not played it; all the pictures I have seen are stunning.

However, the opinion of someone from Ireland who is an accomplished golfer and very, very knowledgeable about Irish golf described it this way,  "If the golf holes were somewhere in the middle of Ireland, no one would play it."  

[Bob_Huntley]

A visual treat, a golfing letdown.

Bob

[John Goodman]

I agree that the architecure wasn't inspiring, but I liked it a lot and was glad I went there to play.  It was beautiful.  I guess I like dumb blondes . . .

[Jack_Marr]

I don't like the whole idea of the course - it's soon-to-be private status and its occupation of an Irish geographical feature. I have played the course and enjoyed it very much.

[Dan Boerger]

I played Old Head on a magnficent sunny summer day. The views were breathtaking. As many here have noted, not a particularly amazing set of holes, but not tricked up either.

[Andy Doyle]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Are there subtleties to the course that require a number of plays to appreciate, or is it a bland course on an incredible setting?

I don't know the details of any holes, but looking at those runoffs towards the cliffs, I could imagine a number of driving holes with a high pucker factor - similar (but even more dramatic) than #9 at Pebble Beach where you can hit a great drive and then have to stand there desparately hoping it doesn't keep rolling right off the edge of the fairway/world.

Andy

[Tom Huckaby]

I'm with Jack Marr most definitely in that I too don't like the concept of the club - very overpriced, soon to be private, right there on a major geographic landmark.  It's also the most "un-Irish" club I visited over there... everything screams out American, really.

But as for the golf course itself, well... I played it on a fine sunny day a few years ago and I loved it.  Of course the views are spectacular - but there are quite a few fine shots to be played also.  Andy nailed it - there are many drives - and approaches - where you are hanging on for dear life.  It's pretty darn fun.  

The "dumb blonde" assessment of this course has become standard dogma in here, and I don't get it.  

I just don't get what's missing, or what could have been done better in terms of "architecture".  

I also think if Old Head is a golfing letdown, then one must play all of his golf at VERY fine places.  So Bob, you are excused.  But let's just say none of my college buddies came away from Old Head with anything but glorious raving praise.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I played 36 holes at Old Head about three years ago and my feelings are that the course is clearly not in the league with the upper echelon like Portrush, County Down, Ballybunion / Old and the like.

However, the idea that Old Head is completely a waste of time is a major league stretch.

I can name no less tha six (6) holes that are well done and give you a superb interaction with the cliffs. No doubt the views are drop-dead stunning. Frankly, Old Head blows away Pebble Beach and Cypress Point strictly from the off-course views it provides.

Old Head does have issues with the fees it charges but if people are going to use that against the course then I would hope these same people would opine on what you get from a day of golf at Whistling Straits, Pinehurst #2 (surcharge and all), and a host of others here in America.

Old Head does have a number of holes that look like they were transported from the states. The opening hole belies the quality of the holes you encounter with the 2nd and 4th, to name just two on the opening half.

Like I said at the outset -- Old Head isn't a bonafide links course and one needs to keep that in mind when going there. However, there's enough juice to make a trip worthwile and when you get a sunny day with a nice (but not too violent) breeze there are few places I have played in the world that can give you the incredible rush the property provides.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - very well said - concur 100%.

Man if Old Head is a waste of time, I wonder what's worth one's time?

 

Re price, it's more a relative thing... In America there are a lot of courses that charge an arm and a leg, like the ones you listed.  Old Head just priced itself from the start way more than any other course... But more importantly, it's the feel of the place that is objectionable - so American, so expensive, so modern, soon to go private, no deals for the locals, etc.  And all this on a very important landmark... It just doesn't feel right.

TH

[John Sabino]

Matt

I agree with your assessment fully. Too much Old Head hatred on this site. It's a fine days golf and worth the fee particularly vs. some other overpriced and overhyped courses.

Joe

[Pete Lavallee]

Joseph,

Which Irish courses are charging 150 euros these days?

[Garland Bayley]

Matt

I agree with your assessment fully. Too much Old Head hatred on this site. It's a fine days golf and worth the fee particularly vs. some other overpriced and overhyped courses.

Joe

I am curious Joe as to what courses this site overhypes that are overpriced and don't compare favorably to Old Head?

[John Sabino]

I wasn't comparing it to other Irish courses. No argument from me that Ballybunion, Lahinch, County Down, Portrush, etc. are much, much finer courses and better value for the money. By comparison to the price of The Old Course (overpriced), Pebble Beach (overpriced), Shadow Creek (overpriced) and TPC at Sawgrass (overpriced and over-hyped) and Royal Troon (overpriced and over-hyped).

Joe

[Garland Bayley]

I guess I dont see Troon and Sawgrass overhyped on this site, so the real answer that you should have given is "none".

[Andy Doyle]

Which Irish courses are charging 150 euros these days?

I believe Waterville charges 150 euros, although I got to play for 75 euros because I was there in Nov.

The talk about Old Head "going private."  I thought it already was a private club - they wouldn't let me through the gate, even to just look around.  Is it going "US exclusive private" - unlike many European private clubs that allow outside play (which they do now)?

Andy

[Aidan Bradley]

If you are interested in seeing any more images of Old Head, I have a total of 52 images of this course on my site. Aidan.

http://www.golfcoursephotography.com

[Andy Doyle]

See, I KNEW if I started another thread on golf in Ireland I could get Aidan to pitch in with some of his gorgeous photos.

Love the lighthouse - not too crazy about the goat.  Much prefer the live one(s) at Lahinch.

I was also hoping to entice Tom Doak into sharing his view on the subtleties to address on this type of (or this specific) site.

Andy

[Jason Topp]

The setting is spactacular and it is worth a trip to the course just for the setting.  However, in my opinion, the picture below is an illustration of a missed opportunity to create a great hole.  

The picture below is number 4 taken from the trail leading from the tee to the fairway.  It is probably about 430 yards steeply downhill with the fairway sloping right to left.  As it plays now, you hit a tee shot to the right edge of the fairway and slopes feed the ball to the left.  As the picture illustrates, the right side is wide open.  You have a better angle into the green from the right side so there is no need to get close to the cliff, in fact you are punished for doing so.

I would either (a) reorient the green to reward a tee shot kept near the cliffs, or (b) preserve the memorable green location and create some challenge associated with keeping the ball right, such as a reverse slope, a pot bunker or something else.



I do not think my analysis of this hole is original, but I cannot remember where I read it.

[Doug Siebert]

Andy:

Re: "pucker factor".  I'd have to say the tee shot with the highest pucker factor I've ever played is the 12th at Old Head.  The angle to the fairway is sorta like that at #18 Pebble and you have to bite off a similar amount of real estate, but you are teeing off from several hundred feet above the sea and the fairway is above the level of the tee.  You are aiming at a cliff face, and can't see the fairway at all!

The wind also does some really crazy things up there.  Everyone knows the wind on the west side of Ireland can blow more viciously than about anywhere, but when you are high on a cliff the wind can updraft (and downdraft again a bit away from the cliff)  My caddie was telling me about how the pro there would show off by playing a low shot out over the water on one of the par 3s when the wind is just right and the ball would upshoot and get pushed back towards the green.

As far as it going private, that's their intent.  The memberships were $50K when I played there in 2004.  Not sure if it was going to go totally private like a US style private or mostly private ala Muirfield.  I'd certainly put it high on the list of places to play for anyone who was going to be in the area and hasn't seen it simply because the opportunity to see it in the future is not guaranteed.

I've argued about my views on Old Head before and won't rehash them.  I believe Turnberry is the logical comparison to it when considering UK courses, so I'll just say I find Turnberry to be overrated and Old Head to be underrated.  I'd play Old Head 8 or 9 times for every 1 or 2 I played Turnberry.

[Jack_Marr]

I think the important thing here is that the vast majority of people who play the course really enjoy it. I don't want to be seen to be defending the cost of playing, but the course is closed for a good few months of the year. That said, they don't really want locals or taxi drivers playing the course. Aside from the course, the setup seems false to me.

By the way, there is a similar site within view of Old Head that Ernie Els will be developing into a golf course. I hope they learn from some of the mistakes made at Old Head, but that might be a bit much to ask.