[Craig_Rokke]

I just got back from a Pinehurst trip where we played, among others, Pine Needles and Mid Pines. I really enjoyed both, which are literally located across the street from each other.
We did not play #2, but I know some place P Needles in the same realm.

Pine Needles is hosting next years Women's Open, and to gear up, they brought in John Fought to restore the course to the original Ross intent. See:
www.golfthemidatlantic.com/story/335

I was surprised to hear the pro mention Fought's name when I am so used to hearing of 5 or 6 others who routinely are hired as "Ross experts."  We played the "Ross tees" which are located exactly where Ross had them some 85 years ago at around 6500 yards.
(All this high tech equipment and I still only shot an 88.)

We all found this to be a highly engaging course-- a very nice mix of holes, great greens, and well-placed bunkering. For those of you familiar with the course, have you played it since the work, and was it much improved? Fought isn't exactly daily dinner conversation here on GCA. How is his other work?


Thanks to everyone who recommended restaurants. We did get to the Pinecrest (thank Bill McBride/Gene Greco for the tip)
and enjoyed it immensely.

[paul cowley]

I have recently played Pine Needles and from what I saw of his work I would say it is excellent.

[Mike_Young]

I agree with Paul Cowley.
And just think he was hired w/o the blessing of the DRS.  I think he knew a relative of PKB.
He has much more experience than your normal restoration expert recommended by the DRS.  
Good Job.

[paul cowley]

Mike ....your posts still seem to be laggin behind mine case you havent noticed

[Mike_Trenham]

This was the standout course from the Dixie Cup for me.  As a Philadelphian I am biased towards the local courses but there are only 2 courses better in Philadephia in my opinion.

The holes fit the land so well and while all of the features had a fresh look about them they looked appropriate.  The only item that stood out to me as not original or in keeping with the course was the new green on the par 4 #14 which was pushed back and did not sit on the ground like anything else on the property.  

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Craig-

I have been caddying at Pine Needles for the past two months and you hit it at the perfect time. I was not up there this past weekend, however this past month the greens have been rolling very true and fast. The fairways have been a bit patchy and a bit on the soft side. The course really gets going on the back nine, and everyone seems to enjoy that side better.

Mid Pines is one of my favorite courses in the Pinehurst area, also my favorite to caddie for obvious reasons. The conditioning this spring has been unbelievable. Couldn't have hit it at a better time.

Mike

[Craig_Rokke]

Mike T.-

The holes really do fit the land well. Fantastic use of the terrain in my opinion. I wish I could remember the green @ 14.
It was very difficult for me to guess what had been re-done, and I guess that's a reflection of the seemless work Fought appears to have turned in on the project.

This was my first trip to Pinehurst, and I was wondering
if the proliferation of pine tree-lined fairways would lend
a repetetive, bland feel to the courses. Not here.

May I ask your #2 course here in our neck of the woods?  

[Bill_McBride]

At the Dixie Cup we played Mid Pines in the morning and Pine Needles in the afternoon.  I have no idea what PN was like pre-Fought, but it was quite nice when we played.  The bunkers were well shaped, all the turf in good shape, no wear and tear.  It looked right out of the box.

MP by contrast is an older course.

I enjoyed them both.  I was fascinated by the completely different routings of two 1920's Donald Ross courses separated by a thin road.  

Mid Pines is almost all tees and greens on the high points, with valleys in between.  Pine Needles is almost completely the opposite, with most tee shots up over a ridge to a green on the other side down lower.

I wonder if Ross did this on purpose in order to establish the contrast and create interest.  At any rate, it interested me!

The two courses are also a good walk, as each tee was within 30 yards of the previous green in almost every case.  I just love that.  

[Mike_Trenham]

The Pine Needles & Mid Pines web site has a great slide show of the restoration with historic photos of the construction what a display of manual labor.  Makes you appreaciate how cheap labor was at that time.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

The 12th hole has changed considerably. Adding the large bunker about 40 yards in front of the green. If you guys received a yardage guide there is a great summary of the history of the course.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Craig

Fought's South Course at The Gallery in Tucson was built as his tribute to Ross and will host the WGC Match Play for the next 2 or 3 years until a new Nicklaus course is built nearby.

Here is good interview:

www.golftodaymagazine.com/0604/Fought.htm

www.foughtdesign.com

[Jim Sweeney]

I've been to Pine Needles and Mid-Pines with the same group three of the last four years, including this past March.

Fought is a close friend, I believe perhaps a college teammate, of Peggy Kirk Bell's son in law, former tour  player Pat McGowan, who now manages the resorts. Fought has done some original work, at times partnered with Tom Lehman, such as the Raven at Verado in the far weastern Phoenix Valley.

My entire group was very impressed with the "new" Pine Needles.

The main changes were, IMO, the contouring around the greens, which enhances in places the opportunity for the ball to run away from the putting surfaces, the new bunker fronting the 11th (not 12th) green, and the switch back to the original par 4/5 sequence of holes 14 and 15. Last year they played 5/4.

I personlly think the "new" 15th is a show stopper. It is excellent. Dead straight, but the fairway tilts precipitously right tho left, sending tee shots careeneing toward the brace of bunkers on the left. We played the Ross tees, and these bunkers are right in the drive zone about 260 out. Just a mid to long iron home from there; however, from the new back tee, a fairway wood would be required to reach in two. the green opening is generous but flanking bunkers await the slightly off line approach. Lay up shots are challenged by a bunker right and OB left.

Number fourteen is the most difficult par 4- a long dogleg right with the drive zone narrowed by bunkers on the right. Long and straight puts one in the woods to the left. There is no elevation change, and the green is partialy hidden by the left front bunker. I believe there is a back right bunker missing, which disrupts one's depth perception.

I do not know if this is a change but I do not remember the fron to back slopes on holes 2,9, and 18 greens as being so severe. However, they fit perfectly and do not overwhelm. I will consider the bump and run into those grees next time, though.

[Brent Hutto]

I do not know if this is a change but I do not remember the fron to back slopes on holes 2,9, and 18 greens as being so severe. However, they fit perfectly and do not overwhelm. I will consider the bump and run into those grees next time, though.

I played Pine Needles for the first time (two rounds) in January, 2004. Then I played the "renewed" version at the Dixie Cup matches in October, 2005. My impression of the tendency toward the back of the greens at the second and eighteenth holes is that they were the same both times around the course. Or perhaps my memory fools me. I have no recollection of the ninth green from my 2004 round so I can't say about that one.

Personally, I think greens with a tendency (the more subtle the better) toward the back to be a woefully underused design feature. The second green at Pine Needles is a great example and makes a lovely but not particularly interesting hole into a fine one. The eighteenth hole is one of my favorite closing holes anywhere and it is all kinds of fun with a back right hole location (as it was on my first trip there).

As a relative newcomer to Pine Needles but a lover of the course, I think John Fought did exactly what the course required. I refer to it as a "renewal" because it wasn't totally an attempt to restore some (usual semi-mythical) "original intent" of a long-dead architect but neither did the living architect attempt to impose his will on the way the course plays. Pre and post renewal the course seemed to me to be just the same, only better.

[Phil Benedict]

I was in the Jim Sweeney group in late March.  We had quite a lively debate on which of the two courses was more difficult from the tees we played (the back at MP and the Ross tees at PN).  Pretty stiff breeze the whole time we were there.  It seemed as though at MP the wind was never at your back no matter what direction you were playing in.  We thought that was just another example of the genius of Donald Ross.

On 18 at PN one of our group hit the 18th green 5 times before it stayed on the surface.  I am really interested to see the women finish up on that hole in the Open.  Back left pin on Sunday could be fun.

[A_Clay_Man]

Fought isn't exactly daily dinner conversation here on GCA. How is his other work?

John spoke at one of the GW rater retreats last year. His talk was fairly comprehensive, with an edge towards sharing his experience as both player and archie. He emphatically stated that it's nearly impossible to do both simultaneously.
He also commented on how smaller equiptment has been useful in creating better internal green contours.

I liked his work at Cimmaron in Palm Springs but didn't care for the course at Trophy Lake, in Wa. Not enough green contour. So I asked him directly if he had used the smaller machines on those greens, he said he hadn't.

After hearing him speak, my take was that we have yet to see his best work.

[Matt MacIver]

I love them both, but for me Mid-Pines is more intimate, famaliar.  I feel like I'm stepping back in time.  

Read somewhere that Ross designed Pine Needles to be tougher and/or more of a "championship" course while designing Mid-Pines as more of a local, daily-playing "country club" feel.  

[Craig Disher]

I felt that Fought might have left the greens at PN very close in style to what Ross had intended for PH#2, prior to the big buildup. He did a great job, I think.

The atmosphere at PN/MP is just terrific and a real contrast to that at PH which I find kind of brassy and commercial. I don't want to take anything away from #2, which I love, but if offered 10 rounds at all 3, I'm not sure that I wouldn't divide them evenly with my fourth at #2.

[peter_p]

     I played Pine Needles last year. The scale was impressive and the greens were challenging. Bunkers were'nt intrusive.
    We both played at the same course when he was an amateur. He was very methodical in his approach, the antithesis of a feel player. Adam's assessment is right, his work product steadily improves. I get to play his first solo project all the time. It has issues which aren't evident in his current work. His newest project is promoted as Ross style. I'll check that out in a month.
     Given his annual golfing vacations to the west of Ireland I'm suprised that pedigree hasn't show up in his portfolio.  

[Forrest Richardson]

John's work there was very good. I did not know what to expect, but after playing it I was very impressed.

[michael_j_fay]

John Fought was hired by Pine Needles without the Donald Ross Society being involved. It was the first restoration that John attempted. His connection was through Pat McGowan with whom he played on tour.

John won the US Amateur at Aronimink and has always been a fan of Ross. He spent a full month at the Tufts Archives before he made any plans for Pine Needles. He studied writings, drawings and bunker forms and then translated them to the ground at Pine Needles. In all, he did a marvelous restoration on a very good golf course.

John is proof that a competent Architect who is smart enough to do his homework can do a proper restoration. He is a very competent Architect and a true professional in his field.

[Brad Klein]

My misread, thanks for the correction -- I've removed the post.

[Scott Witter]

Michael Fay:

If the DRS was involved with the decision to hire John Fought for this effort, do you think they/you would have hired him on the basis that he had no experience with Ross work and that as you say, " it was the first restoration that John attempted"?

It would seem...as long as one is competent and does their homework, that by gollie it can work and work very well.  The apparent prerequisite and well earned experience by those who have done Ross work is not really necessary.  Though on the other hand being smart enough to do your homework, doesn't necessarilly mean you are going to get an 'A' on your report card.  One can only hope...I applaud John and his design associate/researcher for doing what sounds like fine work and look forward to other non-Ross experienced architects achieving similar results given the opportunity.

[michael_j_fay]

Scott:

I could not agree more.

We have never tried to keep qualified Architects from doing Ross restoration work. We have strongly suggested that if any Architect is to do restoration work that he be familiar with the subject and conversant with the style of Mr. Ross. If this comes by experience or by study it should well show up in the ground when the job is done.

I know that the result is not guaranteed under any circumstance, yet it stands to reason that familiarity with the subject will bring better results.

[Lloyd_Cole]

I We played the "Ross tees" which are located exactly where Ross had them some 85 years ago at around 6500 yards.
(All this high tech equipment and I still only shot an 88.)

Craig, we also played the Ross tees last Spring, and our group all enjoyed it. However, we were led to believe that said 'Ross tees' were positioned so that the course today, with modern equipment, would play as it was originally designed to, but not to the original length. Many of the challenging (for decent club amateurs) drives were such that an Ok hit would pitch in the upslope, and stop but a very well struck shot would carry the apex and and then consequently be rewarded with extra roll. I found this an enjoyable challenge.

[Craig_Rokke]

Definitely, Lloyd. I love those  "turbo-boost" kinds of holes where
reaching a certain distance on your drive pays of exponentially with the roll.

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