[Tom_Doak]

No one has mentioned it, but the loss of creativity and character as the result of increased green speeds is staggering.  If you've got some imagination, being told the greens will run at 12 is like putting a straightjacket on.

Anthony, are there any of those well-planned high-speed TPC courses you yearn to go out and play?  That's the problem with faster green speeds.

[paul cowley]

I think the debate should be less about stimp and more about pinable areas....areas and surrounds that slope at 2 percent or less.
....for me, as long as a green has at least 3,300 sg' minimum  pinable area, it doesn't really matter if the green is 4,000 or 20,000 sg' and chock full of 6 percent slopes or greater....in fact, the more the better for me, as the greens I enjoy the most all possess internal movement [but that is a personal opinion, probably worth a thread on its own].

[Mike_Young]

I think we will see the day when 1% is the max in pinnable areas.  And as TE and a few others say...nothing wrong with having the internal contours of the older greens but the 1% areas that these various slopes transition into will need to be much larger than the 8 to 10 ft radius that is common today....so the character of the green is placed in jeopardy.  I guess it is sorta like driving a sports car on the intersate or a winding hilly two lane....why would you choose the interstate?

And TE...there are some bedknives now that are placed where a 1/16th cut can be acheived....I bet 10 years ago and I know 30 years ago no one thought they could get to where they are today.  The future is laser mowing...watch.....and the grass breeders....well they can keep gettin it down....

[TEPaul]

"And TE...there are some bedknives now that are placed where a 1/16th cut can be acheived....I bet 10 years ago and I know 30 years ago no one thought they could get to where they are today.  The future is laser mowing...watch.....and the grass breeders....well they can keep gettin it down...."

Mike:

All I can say to these people who are pushing mowing technology like that is WHY?

There's absolutely no point at all in pushing green speeds on any greens anywhere beyond 11 on the stimpmeter for all the reasons I gave above. Playability-wise, challenge, interest, enjoyment etc, there's just nothing at all to be gained by going beyond that stimp number.

Ultimately attempting to do what you mentioned some mowing and agronomy people may be trying to do is nothing much more than the stupidity of MAN.

[Mike_Young]

"And TE...there are some bedknives now that are placed where a 1/16th cut can be acheived....I bet 10 years ago and I know 30 years ago no one thought they could get to where they are today.  The future is laser mowing...watch.....and the grass breeders....well they can keep gettin it down...."

Mike:

All I can say to you or these people who are pushing mowing technology like that is WHY? There's absolutely no point at all in pushing green speeds on any greens anywhere beyond 11 on the stimpmeter for all the reasons I gave above.

TE,
I completely agree with you.....I am just stating what I believe will happen.....
Hope to see you in June
Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Young,

It's interesting that Donald Ross called for smaller greens for modern golf.

Yet, with higher speeds, we know that larger greens are needed if you're to make the greens interesting.

I doubt 13 on a stimp was ever a consideration for him.

I think Tom Doak is right, there is a corelation between increased speed and the lack of creativity, contour and/or character.

[Jim Nugent]

Maybe somewhat off-topic, but this thread got me wondering. How much variation in green speed is there typically on top courses?  Do all 18 greens stimp the same?  Might some greens stimp at 8 or 9, and others at 11 or 12?  

Also, what courses or tournaments on the PGA tour typically have the highest-stimping greens -- and how high are they on the stimp scale?

[Anthony Butler]

No one has mentioned it, but the loss of creativity and character as the result of increased green speeds is staggering.  If you've got some imagination, being told the greens will run at 12 is like putting a straightjacket on.

Anthony, are there any of those well-planned high-speed TPC courses you yearn to go out and play?  That's the problem with faster green speeds.

Tom, are you saying that a property owner will dictate to you what speeds they want the greens to run at before the design and contouring of greens is finished?

As far as my opinions about TPC courses, I would describe those greens as purpose-built. They are designed to produce all sorts of pin placement possibilities on the weekend during the tournament to increase the drama and entertainment for spectators & TV viewers. In some cases (i.e. #17 at Sawgrass) the green design adds immeasurably to the challenge of the hole for the world's best players. From my own TPC experiences you'll only find the course in this condition for a couple weeks of the year. You hit a halfway decent shot on 17 for 50 weeks of the year and you make your par.

To Tom's point, the use of slope allows you to create challenge & interest on the putting surfaces for 52 weeks of the year.

** At the same time, some dead guy greens are just crazy at 10 on the stimpmeter (#8 at Pasa). If that green was designed to originally play at 7 on the stimpmeter and it is mostly unfair or largely unplayable at a 'modern' 9.5 or 10, I don't see why a renovation is out of order to create more playability and pin options.***

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