Pix of Lions Mouth Green, Country Club of Charleston

[Jay Flemma]

...I still can't get photobucket to cooperate, but at the link below, I posted pix of the 16th green at CC Charleston...the "lion's mouth."

What a green!  The contours allow you to putt from one wing to the other by spinning a putt...kinda like 6 at Riviera, 14 at black mesa, and 7 at crystal downs  I give the dimensions on the site too.  The rest of the restoration is going great too.  Redan photos coming soon and they will knock your socks off!

Enjoy.

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com

[Jay Flemma]

I cant get the pix to show up in the body of a post here!  Nothing comes up!

Hey Ryan, nice to see you BTW...that new avatar seems to be working well for you.

[Ryan Farrow]

Say you are looking at your photo album with all your pictures

Click on the last link below that says Img, It sould highlight the whole thing, right click that hit copy.

In the body of your text just hit paste. Make sure the  IMG tags do not have writing near them and it should look like this:







I am keeping the avatars simple. After the draft i might be looking to rep my steelers again. Santonio Holmes. Im feeling another super bowl

[Jason Topp]

Here is one of the pictures:

[Jay Flemma]

Nice Jason...you see how the curve of the back lets you spin a putt? You can see clearly on some o fthe other pix as well.  This thing will look super when its finished.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay - I don't get what's going on with this green, either from this pic or those on your website.

Is the center part going to be bunker and the green wraps around it like a horseshoe?

If so, then WHOA... last I saw anything like this was in miniature golf... this is gonna be the Q in quirky for sure.

TH

[Jay Flemma]

That's EXACTLY what it is Huck.  No its not Q for quirky, its R for Raynor!  restored to his EXACT specs.  The deep maw of the bunker is inside the horseshoe green.  Amazing.  Apparently only other one like it is St. Louis CC...yes, I know there are HEART SHAPED greens at Harbour town and chechessee...which are quite similar to each other, butn this is REALLY pronounced.  Check out those contours, Huck...you can spin a putt from one far quadrant to the other!

[Tom Huckaby]

Whoa.

That's about all I can say - that may well be the weirdest green I've ever seen.

What type of shot gets played into it?  How wide is each wing and is there room in the back center?

The putts would seem be very fun, and very doable not matter what.

I'm just wondering how the hell one plays an approach shot into that....

TH

[RJ_Daley]

I hadn't realised that Silva was going to actually redo the entire green cores and surrounds.  I thought he was just going to shine up bunkers greenside and FWs.

Here is what the hole looked like last time I played there.  
Here is the same pic as Jay's above.  Huck, I believe your thoughts are that the green will wrap around the lion's mouth.  Those should be approaches, not putting surface.  Or... Silva is taking too many liberties if he is going to wrap the surface around the lion's mouth.


next is a pic of the 16 green complex from 18 tee.  You can see the lion's mouth and the pronounced back green elevation, with rear of green fall off, and the right side bunker and green profile.


finally, the far left rear side green profile.

[RJ_Daley]

One more I found is the approach from the left side of green.  My tee ball was rather feeble there, and there is FW out to the right of this lefts side of FW bunker.  I had about 160 from here, for an approach.  It was a fine hole and I would like to see evidence that the green was designed to actually wrap green around the lion's mouth.  Since Raynor was famous for squared green shapes, I don't think he contemplated actual greens embracing around the lion's mouth.  Fore green run ups maintained firm is what I believe Raynor had in mind.  Maybe George Bahto can weigh in on that with his idea or opinion.

[TEPaul]

Fox Chapel (Pittsburgh) has been looking into restoring its Lion's Mouth from a redesign but its original Lion's Mouth green didn't look much like that CC of Charleston green.

[paul cowley]

From what I can see the green is going to be great again....cored out greens always seem more severe and I am glad to see that the fronts and approaches are being included.

[SPDB]

Where did they play the Azalea this year?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Here is a pretty good pic from right before they closed the course this spring.  It is big, but will help you see the contours.



I have a couple more, but they are all pretty much from this same angle.  Unfortunately there was a group playing that hole as you can see, and I didnt want to intrude too much since the guys in the pro shop were nice enough to let me out to just take a look so I didnt want to get in anyones way.

[Michael Whitaker]

Where did they play the Azalea this year?

The Azalea, Senior Azelea, and Junior Azelea will not be played this year.

[Bill_McBride]

For a modern example of this horseshoe green around a brutal center bunker, see #13 Rustic Canyon.  You can sling a putt from one side to the other on that green as well.

My advice, based on a miserable experience, is to stay out of the bunker!  

[SPDB]

The Azalea, Senior Azelea, and Junior Azelea will not be played this year.

Amateurs across the south are breathing a collective sigh of relief
for not having to negotiate the 11th.

Speaking of which, does Silva's work include that hole?

[RJ_Daley]

It also appears that Silva is making the right side of LM wider on the approach than previous.  Daryl's photo is excellent.  What do you guys think of an actual wrap around putting surface.  As above stated, I think that is taking too many liberties, and don't think they will mow it as putting surface, only approach, fringe cut.

[Tom Huckaby]

For a modern example of this horseshoe green around a brutal center bunker, see #13 Rustic Canyon.  You can sling a putt from one side to the other on that green as well.

My advice, based on a miserable experience, is to stay out of the bunker!  

Yes, #13 Rustic is very cool.  BUT... it seems to me to be a lot different from this CC of Charleston green, at least the version in Jay's pic.  13 Rustic has plenty of room directly behind the bunker, and is a lot larger on each side... It's not nearly the horseshoe-shape that this one is.  You can have pins on either side, or directly behind the bunker, all doable for approach shots.

From Jay's pic I still can't get where they'd put any pin.  In Dick Daley's pics, the green makes sense.  The wings and back portion in Jay's pic just look SO small.. it must be some sort of optical illusion.  How wide are the wings and is there room directly behind the bunker?

TH

[Jay Flemma]

RJ...with great respect, I have to correct something...actual old photos and drawings of Raynor's work ACTUALLY SHOW THE  GREEN WRAPPING AROUND...THOSE ARE NOT SURROUNDS.  They were the ACTUAL green contours with the same grades as laid out by Raynor...Silva is RESTORING...this is not a redesign.  

Those surrounds in your picture were the result of people cutting the green a little smaller and after years and years, how the green actually grew smaller and smaller over time.

SIlva is getting right down to exact grading details...I watched them grade the redan...watching he and the crew and the course folks take the descending grading measurements and pound in the stakes was every bit as exciting as being at the soundcheck for an epic rock concert knowing what the band is gonna "break out" or "resurrect" to send the unexpecting crowd into frenzied peals of applause...I cant wait to see people's expressions on opening day.

Now go back and take a look at thye pix I snapped.  You can see how you can play the spin of a putt off the contours from one ramp to the next.  

Once again...the original design was THE WHOLE THING was the green...those "wings" were not surrounds when Raynor built it and for many years thereafter.  
They will live agan in all their glory!  What a place this is gonna be when Silva gets finished.

[SPDB]

Jay -
Does that mean that the 11th is not going to be terror it once was?

Question for the group, was/is the 11th the hardest par 3 in golf?

[Jay Flemma]

Here's links to the pix of the redan:









It will be even more of a terror than it was in the last few years.  I think the original specs called for about a 2-2.5% total grade decrease from front to back.

The bunkers are 15 feet deep!  maybe more.  The false front is enormous.  The scale of that hole is enormous...MUCH bigger then the redan at Black Rock.  I can see why Ben Hogan quipped "you have 17 great holes here at Country Club of Charleston...he got STUNG at number 11!

[Steve Curry]

This is a picture from Mike Stachowicz.


steve

[Michael_Stachowicz]

I just wanted to show that there was architectual and historical merit to what Silva was doing down there with the picture Steve posted for me above.  It isn't a Silva quirky green, it is historically awesome.  When is the last time something was built like this?  90 years ago, that's when.  To have the guts to pull this off, and restore it this closely, Silva and the membership should applauded.

[RJ_Daley]

Jay, I assume you mean the reverse redan (NADER) 11th hole.  Your excitement for the project is infectous.  The photo of from Mike Stachowicz doesn't completely convince me.  Are the two ramps up either side of the LM mowed to green height or fringe approach height?

As for your posting of the NADER, I'll take your word for it that Silva has probed down to original soil profiles and established the proper height, pitch and back kickplate.  As one sees in the photo below, the kickplate is not noticable and without it, makes the hole a something other than a NADER-REDAN.  Yet, it had its own quirky merrits as we see it below.  Not really a REDAN nor a Knoll.  Also, will Silva have teeing grounds slightly more right than the picture to have a more true NADER-REDAN approach into a kickplate?


I am really curious what Silva wants to do with 14 approach where there was obvious abandonment over the years form what SR must have designed.  I like the alligator eyes bunkers off the tee (like 10s)  But the approach on 14 seemed all wrong as it was.