[Kyle Harris]

One of my latest architectural ruminations has been about kicker mounds and their use around greens to help and hinder certain shot shapes.

What better place for research than Huntingdon Valley. Yesterday, in between play (I was doing course setup) I was able to snap a few pictures of examples of kicker mounds that enter play based on the situation.

First, a look at the 2nd hole of the C Course.

From the fairway, the shot is very intimidating. This picture is from roughly 200 yards out (far left of Ran's picture of the same hole in the HVCC 'Course by Country' section). However, a running approach into the right hand side will take the kicker mound and bring the ball to the day's hole location - making the approach a bit more palatable to the wily golfer.



Here's a view from the right fairway near the green.



Another good example that is more situation dependent is found on the 8th hole of the C Course. Here the mound is in the front part of the green, and will kick a ball left to any front/middle left hole location - as show in this picture.



However, when I moved the hole to the back left teir, the kicker mound becomes a detriment to the golfer, funneling the ball to the bottom of the green and making for an awkward angle from which to putt to the back left hole location.



The back view of the green shows how the kicker mound helps the front, and hinders the back - changing the style of play for the hole based on the day's hole location.



I like this usage and how it compounds the ground and aerial games. Any other examples out there?

[Eric Franzen]

Pasatiempos 2nd has a kicker mound which is placed to the right of the hole, if I remember correctly. It certainly provides an option for a safer line if the pin is placed to the left - which you will welcome since the opening of the green is quite narrow for this long par 4.

Maybe someone out there can post a picture of the green site of Pasatiempo's 2nd?

 


 

[Kyle Harris]

Pasatiempos 2nd has a kicker mound which is placed to the right of the hole, if I remember correctly. It certainly provides an option for a safer line if the pin is placed to the left - which you will welcome since the opening of the green is quite narrow for this long par 4.

Maybe someone out there can post a picture of the green site of Pasatiempo's 2nd?

 


 

Eric,

Is the 2nd at Pasa the downhill/sidehill hole. Fairway slopes high right to low left? Maybe that's the 4th?

[JohnV]

Kyle,

You are correct, that is the 2nd.

In order to be called a Kicker Mound, should it be a standalone thing or just a general hillside slope?

Here is a picture from their website of the 2nd hole.

[Kyle Harris]

JVB,

As far as I am concerned, the mound just needs to be a mound - regardless of size. In the case of the C-Course's 2nd at HVCC, the mound is more a broad slope on the hillside (we'll just consider the hill the 'mound').

From the picture, that seems to very much qualify. Thanks for digging that up.

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting, because when we were building those "kicker" features at Stonewall in 1992, I don't remember seeing them on other Philadelphia area courses.  I know Gil Hanse consulted at HVCC for a while when they were starting to restore the "C" nine, so I suspect those kickers are his and not Flynn's.  (Flynn may have had the same idea way back when, but the "C" nine was solid trees in 1992, so it's a big stretch to say the mowing pattern today is his work.)

I do know we have gotten Pasatiempo to widen the mowing to include those types of features on a couple of holes, including the second.

P.S.  Jim Urbina claims he invented the term "kicker mound" and used to charge me a nickel every time any of us said it.  Of course, he discovered the feature when he came to see what we had built at Stonewall.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

To which address shall I send the $0.25?

The restoration of several such mounds on the A-B course happened this past offseason, and from what I've seen of the original Flynn plans they are original. This is based on the fairway contour as drawn in the diagrams and the nature of the topography.

In the case of the 12th at HVCC there was a bunker in the mound that has since been removed (front left of the green). The one on C-8 uses a protrusion from the broader slope, so it is more like a knuckle. A-6 and A-7 use the broader slope to provide kickers to access back left hole locations.

Similarly, the 14th at Manufacturers' has seen a recent bunker removal/kicker mound restoration.

Interestingly, Flynn's plans had very "vague" ending points for the fairway contour. Perhaps this was an indication of using the topo in the area around the green to dictate the fairway contour?

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

The Flynn kicker on C-8 is evident in the Flynn drawings and according to Linc Roden III remained intact from the original design.  



I don't know if I read the topo correctly, but an on-site observation indicates the right to left slope above the C-2 green wast cut out to provide a kicker and fill for the green.  That is a very demanding approach shot to the green.  My club selection for this hole is 4-iron off the tee and 7-wood to the green.  I hope Kyle has a photograph of the green--it is large and in charge with interplays of slopes that demand precise speed and line.

[wsmorrison]

"Interestingly, Flynn's plans had very "vague" ending points for the fairway contour. Perhaps this was an indication of using the topo in the area around the green to dictate the fairway contour?"

I don't know what you mean by the above statements.  Please explain.

Flynn had a nice kicker on the long par 4 13th at the Cascades.  For some reason the small bunker Flynn had was greatly enlarged taking the kicker away (maybe some thought it was too easy with the kicker).  In the recent restoration the bunker was returned to its original size and the ability to run the ball on the ground and use the slope should be returned.  As a resort/member course, it is a good thing to have returned on a 452-yard hole.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

On the diagram of C-2 you posted, notice how the fairway/collar line just ends behind the green. I've noticed this on other diagrams you've shown me (look at B-3 for example) where the fairway line just end near the green.

I speculate that was to allow for some in-field variation?

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:  I don't doubt that Flynn built holes with greenside slopes that were intended to be "kickers".  MacKenzie did so often, Thomas too.

However, by the time I was traveling around in the 1980's, most superintendents had tightened up the approaches and turned those kickers into rough.  I don't know why this is so common, but it is.

Does HVCC's main 18 have any kickers today?  And were they mowed that way 15 years ago or "restored" since?

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne:  I don't doubt that Flynn built holes with greenside slopes that were intended to be "kickers".  MacKenzie did so often, Thomas too.

However, by the time I was traveling around in the 1980's, most superintendents had tightened up the approaches and turned those kickers into rough.  I don't know why this is so common, but it is.

Does HVCC's main 18 have any kickers today?  And were they mowed that way 15 years ago or "restored" since?

Tom,

There are several and with different variations.

The 2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 12th, and 15th all have kickers in some form.

In the case of 2 and 6, bunkers are carried to provide a kick into the front portion of the green. The 7th is similar except it gets balls to the back of the green.

The 8th and 12th have seen bunkers removed to restore the kickers. Though the kicker on the 8th is more of a landing ramp to the new right hole location.

The 8th Green with greenside bunker on the right removed.



On the 15th, the mound is well short of the green and will help kick balls carrying the crest on to the green. Very nice for reaching the green of this Par 5 in two. Interestingly, this hole was originally designed by Flynn as a long Par 4.

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:  In the first picture, the "kicker" part of the fairway was clearly sodded to fairway pretty recently.  Harder to tell on the second picture, but I'd bet it was restored to fairway in the past ten years.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

That sodded area was a bunker back in December - so you are correct. However, the original Flynn plan show that area as being fairway. The bunker was added later, and has since been removed.

As far as I can tell, the mound on 15 has always been fairway (aerials on the internet going back to 1995 show this). However, I think the upslope may have been rough at one point.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

The wrap around the green is more of an indication how the grass was meant to be; rough or an extension of the fairway.  Sometimes these were hollows where fill was obtained and allowed surface drainage.  Flynn would show contour lines that would show the area as a hollow and then indicate whether it was to be long or short grass.

Tom,

Some superintendents may not recognize the architecture for what it was and its impact on playability.  I guess its easier to let it grow than maintain it as was intended.

As for man-made mounding that were intended to be used as kickers, I'll have to think about that.  The 4th and 5th holes had kicker mounds but were removed in subsequent Flynn changes.  The 9th hole had a mound to the left but it was replaced with a bunker that removed the kicker effect.  Flynn's 14th green had a kicker mound on the left with a bunker at the top.  Ross moved the green to the left after Flynn died (and right before he died--it was probably McGovern's work).  C-3 has a kicker mound on the left.  C-7 had a kicker mound on the left with a bunker, but that no longer exists.  Perhaps it was never built that way as there is a large depression where the mound would have been.  

As you say, he and others used greenside slopes to influence approach shots.  There were more at HVCC but bunkers were introduced at some point on some of these holes that negated the affect.  In some cases drainage swales negate the influence of greenside slopes such as the 7th.

Kyle,

I don't think there is a kicker effect on the right side of 8 with the removal of the bunker, the slope is left to right isn't it?

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Depends how far up you go - the "kicker" is really a part of the green now. That's why I made the landing ramp qualifier - it really plays more like the very front of 18, but still serves to funnel the shot.

[James Bennett]

Neither the photo of C2 nor the flynn drawing with the topo indicate how steep the elevation change is on that hole.  Perhaps an experienced architect can see it, but man is that approach steep.  A ball sucking back off the front of the green (or putted too long from the back to front pins, or coming up short) will spend a long time slowly retreating down the slope operhaps 50 yards.

An impressive uphill second indeed (no comment on the tee shot).

James B

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()