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mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« on: April 27, 2006, 08:03:20 PM »
has anyone had a chance to walk/study this design which I believe is opening soon ?

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2006, 08:09:16 PM »
The scuttlebutt around NY is that Liberty is pretty much an unmitigated disaster (architecturally and as a real estate project) and Bayonne is very good (at 1/4 the price?)

Jay Flemma


Ryan Farrow

Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2006, 10:06:27 PM »
Is this course part of the Fresh Kills project in NYC?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2006, 10:21:37 PM »
For the sake of balance, there is no scuttlebutt about Liberty National around Oakhall subdivision in Brentwood, TN.

Today's riddle:  How many golf course architects can GCA throw under the bus?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jonathan McCord

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2006, 11:06:39 PM »
Most of them if we really try!!! :P
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

rgkeller

Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2006, 11:12:28 PM »
For the sake of balance, there is no scuttlebutt about Liberty National around Oakhall subdivision in Brentwood, TN.

Today's riddle:  How many golf course architects can GCA throw under the bus?

Mike

All but one.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2006, 06:34:07 AM »
The scuttlebutt around NY is that Liberty is pretty much an unmitigated disaster (architecturally and as a real estate project) and Bayonne is very good (at 1/4 the price?)

Funny, considering that the construction of the real estate part of the Liberty National project has not even started.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2006, 06:47:09 AM »
Voytek,

   Why should that matter? LN is a very pricey project that appears to be late to the party. If not for Paul Fireman's personal $$, this would never have been a package development as no developer in their right mind would have taken on this flawed an equation.

   LN, the course, is not much better than a Doak 5-6 at best (and that's giving it considerable leeway). It is however an acceptable PGA-level stop with it's length and spectator and view friendly architecture. That said, there will be plenty who will call it some kind of success (based on such merits).

   As for the condo/townhouse component, my bet is that nothing close to the original plans comes out of the ground...too much...too pricey...way over-the-top at the wrong time in the RE cycle.

    My own intel is that the club is having trouble selling memberships anywhere near where they thought the acqusition rate was previously predicted. Package plan offers are floating all over Wall Street (and that was their primary market!). If that is indeed the case, then the owners must be considerable disappointed given that with the course now open to view and soon to play, the primary selling season isn't panning out. I'm sure the press releases won't say that, but the truth does appear to be vastly different.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 06:48:03 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2006, 07:16:56 AM »
Does anyone in the know have an idea of how memberships are selling at LN vs. Sebonac?  I imagine that they are catering to a similar customer base.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2006, 08:17:12 AM »
LN and Sebonack are NOT selling to a similar customer base.
Among other significant differences, they're 2-3 hours apart geographically with entirely different peak seasons
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2006, 08:49:35 AM »
Does anyone in the know have an idea of how memberships are selling at LN vs. Sebonac?  I imagine that they are catering to a similar customer base.


Sebonac IS NOT SELLING memberships like LN. Instead, they are inviting a handful of people to become members and then looking to existing friends of Mike and early-on members for referrals....much classier and more desirable.

LN is vastly different....they are selling the membership privilege directly.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2006, 11:00:18 AM »
Curious, I've heard LN is $500k and Bayonne is $125k, but what is Sebonac?  Tx.  

Ryan Crago

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2006, 02:31:15 PM »
ryan,

as far as i know its not.  But there was a proposal for a golf course in the freshkills work initially... a very public facility, much like the rest of the park.  i'm not sure if it made the final planning/design.

rc.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 02:32:16 PM by Ryan Crago »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2006, 04:34:58 PM »
Could ANYONE who has played Liberty National, or Bayonne or Sebonack give us their assessment of each golf course ?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 04:35:52 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2006, 04:48:51 PM »
Could ANYONE who has played Liberty National, or Bayonne or Sebonack give us their assessment of each golf course ?

Patrick:

I guess you are paging the owners, ie Messrs Fireman, Bergstol, and Pascucci, respectively.

None of these courses has opened yet for member play, so the owners are one of the very few who actually played 18 on these courses...  :)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2006, 05:37:38 PM »

Could ANYONE who has played Liberty National, or Bayonne or Sebonack give us their assessment of each golf course ?

Patrick:

I guess you are paging the owners, ie Messrs Fireman, Bergstol, and Pascucci, respectively.

None of these courses has opened yet for member play, so the owners are one of the very few who actually played 18 on these courses...  :)

Voytek,

Then how can anyone evaluate and comment on the merits of these golf courses ?

What's the source of Alex Wyatt's scuttlebutt ?
[/color]

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2006, 06:13:43 PM »
Steve and Jeff,

Thanks for the replies.

Not knowing too much about how newer golf clubs populate their memberships (I'm a Muni kind of guy), why such the difference?  Is it primarily geography/history of the Hampton area vs. NJ?  Also, are the missions of the clubs drastically different, i.e. one is a club to entertain clients on that would be willing to have a PGA event vs. a more private vacation or summer club for the individual or family?

I assumed that both clubs would be catering to NY area clients, but forgot that Sebonack is a more national type of club.  This is interesting to me because of the geography and the $$s involved in the construction of these types of projects.

Jin Kim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2006, 01:57:18 PM »
I see LN has been rated, so somebody must have played it.

TEE: MEMBER 70.7/131
TEE: MEDAL 73/135
TEE: TOURNAMENT 76/141

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National (Cupp/kite)
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2006, 02:13:10 PM »
You can have a preliminary rating and slope without playing the course.
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

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