Apache Stronghold Update

[John Kavanaugh]

Although I do not feel obliged to defend myself to you, I'll tell you exactly why I wrote what I did even if it did take on a rather critical tone.  Perhaps you will then tell me what your post adds to this discussion.

I ask that Matt sticks to talking about golf courses and describing in detail the courses he comes across on his extensive travels.  Many of us will never see the courses he visits and his added value is a description of these and not his own self-importance.

My post adds nothing to this discussion...I just decided that today I would try to learn if rudeness has any value when seeking opinions on topics such as what is on this board.   Based on what you said to Matt I guess you do when used in the proper context.  Then Ken Burns reference was well placed..

[Craig Van Egmond]

As sad as it is to say, if AS was a horse they would put it down.  It may be time to put it out of its misery.  I do not believe that the problems there will ever be overcome.

 

[Bill_McBride]

Craig, I might agree with you about Apache Stronghold except for the fact that there are as many who say (like me) that they enjoy the course immensely in spite of marginal conditions as there are those who would blow it up.

I don't know if the tribe will ever be able to devote the resources to it which would make the conditions more acceptable.  It's that catch-22: if the conditions are poor, green fee revenue falls, so there's less money to enhance conditions.

But in spite of the conditions, I still found it an architectural gem, great holes in a magnificent setting, never a dull moment.

Now I wasn't too crazy about playing #17 dead into the setting sun right on the horizon, but hey ...........  

[Mike_Cirba]

Hi All,

I'm going to be in Tucson around 1pm on Friday and this thread has me more curious to play AS than anything else on the Tucson thread (that I wouldn't already be playing on this trip).

I grew up playing some pretty threadbare courses so I'm very interested to see it for myself, and how those conditions impact the golf, particularly given the architectural features I've heard quite a few folks here laud over the years.

Anyone in Tucson who'd be up for a drive Friday afternoon?

I'd be happy to report back afterwards.

[Tom Huckaby]

I would very much look forward to your appraisal, Mike.

Bill - can you expand on "marginal" a bit?  I just can't get a handle on what the conditions are really like there.  Are the greens puttable?  Estimate stimp?  Do the fairways have any grass at all?  

There has to be a point of diminishing returns here.

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

Bill,

      I have manage to play AS 4 times, the first time shortly after it opened and was in pretty good shape. It just breaks my heart everytime I go back and it has gotten worse.

Huckster,

         I haven't been back for 2 years but the greens were always in pretty good shape, it was the tee boxes and the fairways that were suspect. Some of them were horrible.

[Tom Huckaby]

Craig - muy interesante....

OK, dirt tee boxes I can live with.  Sucks on par threes, but it's pretty meaningless on all other holes.

Horrible fairways would get very problematic.  BUT... dirt there meaning bare lies all over would be preferable to soggy quagmire, and we've had a LOT of that in NorCal this winter... So I believe I could live with this also.

In the end the greens are the most important thing.  If those are fine, then I'm having a hard time comprehending the problem here.

That is, outside of this:  although one and all report the drive out to Globe is pretty fantastic in terms of scenery, well... it is a LONG drive.  Seems to me human nature would lead to two things happening:

1.  After that long drive and given the high praise for this course in the past, one just expects more (so one might overly chastise had conditions he might not otherwise);

2.  Making the effort to get all the way out there, one doesn't want to feel like one was a fool for doing so, or it wasn't worth the effort (so one might overly accept bad conditions he might not otherwise).

Might not a little of both be going on here?

Oh well, it's all just very interesting in terms of golf course architecture, human nature, and the dynamics of this discussion group.  

Bottom line for me is I'm still not taking the college buds out there as I'd never hear the end of it.  But I do still very much want to play it some day.

TH

 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jay

AS will never be for sale. It's on Indian land. Maybe they would lease the course but they won't sell the land.

[Jay Flemma]

Well isn't there a rule that allows transfer of land from Indian to Non-Indian so long as they get back either the same amount of land or greater?

[Matt_Ward]

Leave it to good ole Wayme to chirp in on a topic that he is utterly CLUELESS about. Wayne -- hello anybody home -- I have played the place numerous times -- geeze -- I also opined on a topic that is directly tied to the maximization of the architecture that Doak provided -- you must have missed that part because you were chomping at the bit to throw forward more useless drivel. Of course -- forgiving my error in thinking you might be a gentleman -- you would not know that because, as your shrill tone indicates -- you are simply throwing your trash darts at me. How predictable on your part.

Wayne -- this isn't a thread about Flynn, or Philadelphia golf or any other narrow topic you have some element of expertise.

Back off the BS -- I have opined on the details of AS in extensive detail. If you get off your behind and bother to do some research you would see what has been written -- here and elsewhere. Forgive me -- I'm sorry -- why bother to do any research when it's so easy to come off as a jerk with the constant verbal putdowns you seem to enjoy throwing.

If you don't like what I add -- simple rule -- ignore it. You have not played AS and are completely clueless on the details that have been explained by me and others here.

Frankly, Wayne -- your agenda is a simple and clearly transparent one -- if Ward says top you say botton. If Ward says left you'll say right. Nothing like being a contrarian glued to his computer in the Northeast. Guess what Wayne -- there are people who do the heavy lifting of playing courses and can thereby comment on what they provide and what's lacking. If you can't hack the fact that I get out there and make the effort to play -- that's your problem not mine. Time to grow up and act like a gentleman partner.

[A_Clay_Man]

Matt, I;m a bit buzzed right now so please forgive me if I may have missed something. But, it was you who interjected with "hold on partner" on the AS condition comments by the original poster. I believe you insinuated that you had heard differently from other sources that conditions were not as our original poster had eluded. How old were those sources? Do you even know how long it takes to turn a course around?
I did respond to your "Tolerable" comment because I didn't care for the snobby attitude you projected.

Now, if you are so swayed, in your GCA analysis by conditioning when it's poor, you probably are also swayed by good conditions when evaluating the GCA. Is that a possibility?

[Darren_Kilfara]

OK...another poster has offered to upload the photos I took in late March of AS, so I'll send them to him and hopefully he can figure out what to do with them.

Cheers,
Darren

[Jay Flemma]

Guys, could we please not fight over shop.  We all have our issues...I throw stones in a glass house too, and make mistakes, but lets all try to remember never to say something to someone we wouldn't say if we were having dinner in person.  Its what makes GCA great.

Matt made a good, if slightly opinionated point in general and Adam and others feel differently.  Lets leave the zingers and personal thumb-biting to lesser sites and lesser people.  I'll try to make the effort too.  Feel free to point out when I make the same mistakes over again too...like all of us, I'm going to spend the rest of my life getting less dumb at this.

The question is legit...lets see if conditions on the back nine improved since I played in Jan and others played in Feb.  Lets also put our collective heads together and see if we can recommend a constructive SOLUTION to the problem.

There is a good challenge for us.  We do a great job discussing what's happening in the test tube...lets see how we do in practice and if we can make a difference.

What are the conditions now?
How have they improved or deteriorated  short term?  Long term?

Lets ask Doak what his team might know or be doing.

What solutions might hep the situation.  If the problem is pandemic to the apathy of those who care for the course, what effort can be made to"at least try."

If the problem is money, how can we help?  If they problem is something else, what is it and what can be done about it?

Wouldn't it be something if we not only talked a great game, but executed a great game plan.

[Yannick Pilon]

Ok guys,

As Jeremy mentioned before, we both went to AS this last Sunday and were both very disappointed.  Jim recommended the course to us, and as soon as I realised it was this close to Phoenix, I knew I had to play it.  People warned me about the conditions, but I was never too influenced by that....  Besides, a Doak course for $55 bucks!  It almost sounded too good to be true!  Unfortunately, it was.

I am almost ashamed to say it, but we did not finish our round and simply toured the back nine (where our cart died and nobody even cared to apologize when they eventually replaced it)....  We were both tired from three days of non-stop travelling across North-America, the conditions of the course were very bad, the wind was literally howling and we were simply not having any fun.

This certainly does not happen to me very often.  I usually don't care for bad conditioning, as long as I can putt on decent greens (I could) and the course design is great.  Yes, the green complexes were interesting. Yes, the routing was interesting.  Yes, the scenery was nice.  But I was disappointed by the overall facilities, the conditioning, the service and by many bunkers that seemed uninspired and bland to me, even by Quebec standards, which people often trash on this site.  I was expecting greatness, this being a Doak course, but somehow, I felt something was missing.  

The problem is, I think my expectations were simply too high.  This lead to a very big disappointment, especially after playing Riviera, Rustic Canyon and Talking Stick North the three days before.  I can see greatness in Apache Stronghold, but for one rare time in my golfing career, I really had a tough time overcoming my amazement concerning the conditioning of this course.

All along I kept thinking:  How can a golf course by Tom Doak be in such a bad shape?  Not that Tom has anything to do with this, but how do you expect to get players out there if you offer them a product this bad?

This is beyond me...

So, to recap.  If you love golf course architecture, but really don't mind bad conditioning, go.  Otherwise, skip this place and stay in Tucson or Phoenix to play equally good courses that won't disappoint you in any way.  (Especially if you lead a group of weekend golfers.  They will remember this for a long time....)

This one has too many bad things going for it to be worth the trip. At least, while it is maintained by this group....

------------------------

The first hole, viewed from the front of the fairway bunker.


The second hole.


The third hole.


The forth hole.


The conditions beside the fifth green, looking towards the fairway.


The sixth hole.


The seventh hole, viewed from the high side of the landing zone.


The eight hole.


The ninth green, from the fairway.


The eleventh hole.


--------------------
Yes, I know, the conditioning does not look this bad based on these pictures....  I am sure some would argue it was not that bad.

Notice the picture of the fifth hole. It looks like they just upgraded the irrigation system around the greens.  Maybe its a sign of better things to come....

Let's hope!


P.S. Jim, don't worry. No hard feelings regarding your suggestion!  I am glad I saw the course.  We had a great time meeting you and your friends.  Feel free to get in touch with me if you come to Montreal.

[Jay Flemma]

I just want to add that what I see in these pictures is a DRAMATIC improvement to what I saw in jan...I saw no grass on the  back and baked grass on the front.  Did they tell you what they have been doing to care for the course lately?

[Yannick Pilon]

No,

We were too busy trying to get a refund for the back nine.

Yannick

[Ryan Farrow]

The pictures you provided looked like the average conditioning at an Arizona course. The courses are already starting to dry out this time of year. Looking at your pictures the conditioning would not and should not stop anyone from playing this course.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

It's probably greener now than in January because of the warmer  weather. I played Papago in early April and will post pics from my visit there. These pics of AS show a course in better condition than some Philly munis.Limekiln and 5Ponds are looking good now.

[cary lichtenstein]

This thread is ridiculous. Bette and I played there and you had to move the ball 20 yards or more to find any grass.

The first 2 fairways were so underwater that we had to zig zag from the cart path where we left our cart to try to find our balls plugged or lost.

The balance of the fairways looked like the top of my bald head...no hair or grass to speak of, amybe a few grey hairs here and there.

The greens were in fine shape.

If you like playing in either a mud bath or a dirt bowl, by all means bring your friends and relatives, better to bring your relatives.

As far as the architecture,goes, I have no clue, I can't play golf that way. I can generally overlook drought, aerirations, locusts and frogs, but the Indian Tribe does a wholesale diservice to Doak on this one.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Believe me, guys.  The pictures Yannick posted do not show how BAD the conditions were.  The tee decks were spotty at best -- though that's not a problem for me, just a loss of "presentation" points.  The bunkers conditions seemed average  -- Though I didn't land in any...    The greens were fine.  Very puttable.  HOWEVER, the fairways (or lack thereof) and the rough were DEPLORABLE.  Trust me, they were the worst I'd ever seen on any course.  And I've played some awful munis.  They were, quite frankly, unplayable.  I'm not exagerating.

For some of you to dismiss this concern as being swayed by a course in Georgia or of not being a "true GCAer" is a gratuitous brush-off.  I'm here to tell you about the golf experience at Apache Stronghold.  There are many things that account for the enjoyement of my experience:  The landscape; the design; the service; the conditioning; pace of play; etc....  And quite frankly, Apache Stronghold, overall, was not enjoyable.  Far from it.  The service was rude, and the conditioning was very dissapointing.  

As far as the DESIGN and ARCHITECTURE of the course, which I was doing my best to look at DESPITE other shortcomings of the course, I can honestly also say that it left me unimpressed.  It wasn't bad at all.  But it certainly was nothing memorable, Doak or not.  But again, it was one of Doak's earlier work.  I'm sure even he looks back on it and realises how far he's come.  Hopefuly, in 15 years time, I'll look back on what I do now and feel the same way.

What it comes down to is this:  What's the big deal with this course??  Honestly, it seemed very mediocre.  The drive there, and a trip to a Coore-Crenshaw course under construction, was what saved the day for us.

[Bill_McBride]

Haven't been there for three years, it does sound as though the conditions have deteriorated beyond "acceptable because of the fun architecture" to "unacceptable."  Too bad.  

[Jim Johnson]

Darren Kilfara's pics of his trip to AS...

#2 tee:


#2 fairway:


#4:


#5 tee:


#5 fairway:


#5 green:


#6 tee:


#6 fairway:


From behind #13 green:


#16 tee:


Example of "fairway":

[Ryan Farrow]

OK. Now that is another story.

[Tim Pitner]

It looks firm and fast.  Really, someone ought to be prosecuted for such neglect.  

[Ryan Farrow]

I don't understand how they hire a big name architect and then let the thing go to waste. It just makes no sense at all.