Scots links and Irish links

[Paul P]

Reading a thread on Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes I saw them being compared to Scots and Irish links, respectively. I play the links of Ireland (now a member of Carne), but I don't have experience of Scots links, apart from a non-golfing visit to St. Andrews.

My question to those with experience is what are the main differences between Scots and Irish links courses? Dunes, bunkering, green sites....?

[Brian Phillips]

Paul,

I don't think there is much difference is there?  Just the stout you can buy in Ireland ...is real and tastes awesome!!

Tim Weiman is probably the man to answer this question as he has played in both countries.

Brian

[Paul Daley]

Paul:

There are many similarities between the links of both countries, the saddest one being that where the links trail
is strongest, those links are becoming progressively more green/lush, thereby diminishing the true links experience for the tourist. A catch-22 situation arises: the tourist wants to play the 'big name' links and by doing so, compounds the problem. The problem is not straight forward; many of the finest links are found in sleepy hollows/villages and towns
and golf is ITS industry - helping to support the population.
To protect from widespread scarring that golf 'traffic' can produce, excessive watering is occuring at an alarming rate. Wise golf tourists with a sense of history and feel for links golf secretly pray for the mean, lean, impoverished fairways of yesteryear. However, these die-hards are only around 20% and so clubs cave in to the 80%. There it is in nutshell: the Augusta National Syndrome spreading its influence to different regions of the globe.

I apologise for getting off the track: now to your question.

While the links in both countries can be either relatively
flat, medium, or mountainous in undualtion, in general, the championship links of Scotland tend to be lower-lying (Old Course, Carnoustie, Muirfield, Turnberry, Troon, Prestwick, North Berwick, Southerness, while many of the best Irish links are more heaving in magnitude. There are no absolutes in this, (indeed several notable exceptions) only trends.

One difference is that while gorse does appear readily on the links in both countries, in general, the Scottish links tend to have a greater profusion of it.

Wee burns are found in both Ireland and Scottish links, but again in general, the championship links of Scotland, plus 2nd tier links are more prone to have menacing burns: St. Andrews, Swilcan; Carnoustie, Barry, Jock's; Turnberry, Wilson's; Dunbar, Roxburn; Cruden Bay, Bluidy; Machrihanish (can't recall name); Machrie (ditto); Leven Links, Scoonie; and another fifty or so.  

Forget about any wind comparisons: wind is wind and can destroy your game at any moment on any links. After four trips, I still love the way proud locals proclaim their links ... "the windiest links in all Britain". I heard it so often I am almost deaf to the sentiment!

Both countries could point to several long brutal links. Across the board, though, I would say the Irish ones are longer.

I have generally found the speed of greens to be equally slow in both countries. Coming from Melbourne where the greens can be lightning quick, everything else seems slow.

As a rule, the championship links of Ireland are easier to get a game on, booking wise. Despite this, the Irish links tend to be less crowded.

Have a great trip, a little tip: forget about cramming your itinerary with the championship links; get your fill of these and then get off the beaten track, let your hair down, save valuable cash, and rejoice in the glorious uncertainty of links golf.  

[Brian_Ewen]

Paul
Though you may be right in some instances , I can assure you the reason fairways are green and lush (and not "mean, lean, impoverished fairways of yesteryear." ) in my part of Scotland (North East) ,has more to do with the change in our weather rather than over watering .

Brian Ewen

[Paul Daley]

Brian:

Thank goodness for that! I was previously only providing an overall situation, and obviously exceptions do occur.  

[Paul P]

Thanks for the information Paul. I am not going on a trip though, as I live in Ireland. I recently played Carne, Murvagh, Strandhill and Enniscrone, and four more different links you could not imagine. I am a member of Carne and can think of no other course to compare to it in terms of design. I don't mean that it's the best but it's unique in design. All these courses are thrilling and cost next to nothing. Enniscrone may be the best, although Carne is my favourate. I don't know the irrigation policy of the courses, but they were moderately dry and fast when I played them.

That said, I remember going to seen the Irish Open when I was a kid in Portmarnock and Royal Dublin and they were brown, even with brown patches on the greens.  Maybe it was after dry summers, though, which seem more rare now. Most think the Irish Open should return to places like Portmarnock.

I greatly look forward to going to Scotland and playing what it has to offer. In fact, it's now cheaper for me to go to Edinburgh than to get the train to Galway or Kilarney..

Kind regards

Paul

[Paul Turner]

The most obvious difference that struck me was the lack of true out and back links in Ireland; I can only think of Royal Dublin which fits the bill.  Scotland and England have plenty.  This may be due to how the dune ranges have developed differently.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Paul,

I recently played Carne (also Rosses Point and Enniscrone). I cannot tell you how much I loved Carne. It was 45 MPH day and rain in the morning, I lost a ton of balls never touched a wood, and had the time of my life ! What a magical place in a country filled with magical courses. With a little work to the greens and bunkers (Eddie Hacket likes it simple), Carne would absolutely be mentioned in the same category of greatest links courses in the world. Yes, it is difficult to get there, but to me that is part of the appeal. Try to get Ran to do a write-up as it is a course that would be enjoyed by GCA'ers

[Paul P]

Mike, the course will mature the old fashioned way due to financial restrictions, so the greens will take a while. They will build another nine holes in the next few years, which is quite exciting, and a final nine after that.
They are raising a few quid through international life memberships at the minute.


 I would be very interested to see a write up on this site.

[Paul Daley]

Paul T:

I fully concur that one difference lies with the lack of true 'out and in' layouts in Ireland. The more one investigates, the more finds a huge diversity of configurations.

Mike S & Paul P:

Great to hear of your love for Carne. To get to this links via the biggest living breathing bog in all Europe must be quite an experience. I suspect people will be raving about this links in years to come. Dear Old departed Eddie, he gave so much to the game, working the West coast from tip to bottom on shoe-string budgets ... sometimes not being paid. Hail Eddie Hackett.

[Paul P]

Yes. the drive is nice, but you can see where the bog is being fed into an electricity burner on huge conveyors, so I hope it has a future. The drive from Belmullet to Connemara is also a very nice one, and it's a truely worthwhile golf course.

As a side issue, did you know that Scotch whisky will only last as long as peat, which is not a renewable resource. When the peat is gone, so is the Scotch.

And finally, if you want to play a great and quaint links, try Arklow. It's old fashioned with brown, hard, undulating fairways.  Greens are also very undulating, very natural. Some holes might not be to everyone's taste, but has to be classed as what "they" call a gem.

[Slag_Bandoon]

"Enniscrone may be the best, although Carne is my favourate."

Paul P

  Carne was magical and vibrant when I played there.  Serious wind that laid out a distant wind sock flat with exclamation.  As stated in another thread, I can't separate the architect from the experience and walking alone through those dunes, I was walking with Eddie Hackett hisself.   I also played with a Dubliner (Tom Hadley, who I thought was Colin Montgomery from a distance) and his "spirited" Belmullet cousins, who didn't actually play but followed around and remarked on anything and everything.  They were two great days out on great playing fields.  

  While Enniscrone (pre-reroute) was a blast and I highly recommend it, it had a full parking lot with tour busses and the likes of meself there.  The massive activity around the clubhouse was levelling after the absolute solitude and natural dynamics of Carne.  So, I understand the feeling of Carne being your favorite if not the most respected of courses by "they".  It is my favorite in Ireland, too.

No peat no Scotch?  !   Then we must drop this silly search for remote linksland and concentrate all of our efforts into exploration of peat bogs!   Godspeed, man!

 

[Slag_Bandoon]

   I have only limited experience on each island but generally I think of Irish courses as newer cultivation while Scotland's are cut by generations of golfers for a feeling of more control over the land.  Simply put, Irish golf seems wilder to me.  Dune blowouts instead of hooded bunkers sort of thing.  

"Generalizations are always wrong."   Unk

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Calm down, Slagster!

This nopeat/nowhisky thang is just some jealous Irishmen trying to compensate for the inadequacies of their native poteen and the further humiliation that the only half decent dram you can get on the isalnd is made by the Presbyterians at Bushmills.  Drink Powers only at your peril.  There is more uncut peat in Scotland than there is unvarnished Blarney in Eire.  Slainte!

Ricardo

[Michael Whitaker]

Paul P - When comparing Irish golf to Scotland you have to break out Northern Ireland from the Republic of Ireland. When we were in NI they made it VERY clear to us that we were NOT in "Ireland." Every reference we made to Ireland was quickly reprimanded... in a nice way, of course!

My impressions of the various regions are as follows:

Republic of Ireland: The courses seem more "natural" and "wilder" to me than their counterparts in NI or Scotland. It felt like there was a greater variety of "looks" to the courses. Ireland was much more rural than either NI or most of Scotland, and the people are the most friendly group in the world. I know this sounds funny, but everything just seemed more casual and "easy" in Ireland... it almost made Scotland feel commercial. Ireland seemed poorer compared to Scotland or NI. Each little town had a pub where everyone gathered in the evenings. There was singing and music. And everyone was
genuinely concerned about our having a good time... they all wanted to know if we liked their country... and, if we might enjoy coming back. I recommend the Republic of Ireland highly. We felt like part of the family and it was a lot of fun.

Northern Ireland: Some of the greatest courses you will ever play... anywhere in the world. Royal County Down, Portrush, and Portstewart are must plays. And the list of "Gems" is ample, led by Ballyliffin. But, when you are in NI you know you are in the UK. It is "different" than Ireland. More industrial. More urban. More prosperous. And the tone at the golf courses felt "serious"... more like a business. Great people, very warm and welcoming, but they didn't go out of their way to make sure we were having a good time. They were very polite and businesslike, and, for the most part, kept to themselves. But GREAT golf!

Scotland: The home of golf, what else can you say. Scotland has a greater variety of course looks and styles than Ireland, but, in general, the links courses feel "flatter" (less undulation) compared to a lot of the courses in Ireland. Also, you'll see a lot more stacked sod bunkers and gorse in Scotland than in Ireland. The people in Scotland are great and treat you extremely well. They seem more "into" golf, discussing golf or golf related topics, than their counterparts in Ireland. In Ireland they wanted to laugh and sing and drink Guinness. In Scotland they wanted to discuss politics and drink whiskey.

These are bold generalities, I know. But, they are my memories and feelings from the several trips I have made.

I am planning another visit to Ireland in '03 and can't wait. I feel about Ireland the way Lorne Rubenstein felt about Dornoch when in he decided to spend a season there. To steal
Mr. Rubenstein's thought:

"When I am not in Ireland I am thinking about Ireland. When I am in Ireland, I do not think of any place else."

Ah, the Emerald Isle.

[Paul P]

Rich,

It was the Irish who invented whiskey after adapting a technique confined to perfume makers in North Africa. It's a long story, but due to wars, taxes and marketing circumstances, Ireland went from the world's largest exporter of the spirit with hundreds of brands to the situation as we find it now. Most of Ireland's brands are made in the same place in Cork.

Irish whiskey is much smoother, being triple distilled. Scotch is a differnet drink altoghether, which while not being as much to my taste, is undoubtedly excellent. The quality of the standard Irish whiskey is excellent, and the top blends are superb. Jameson is beautiful, all of its offerings. Middelton is also superb, especially the very rare 1995.

Anyway, what ever you drink, enjoy it. Now how do I work that into golf course architecture?


Clemnet,

Northern Ireland is in "Ireland" but is part of the UK. The great links of Northern Ireland would have originally been the reserve of Protestants and there would generally be a Unionist membership there through tradition. (I am not making any political statements here). Also, Ballyliffin, while being in the northerly part of Ireland, is not in Norther Ireland, but the Republic. A bit confusing, I know. I would love to go to Northern Ireland and play the Royals etc.

The roads and the civil architecture is different in Northern Ireland, too. I have experience of that. The north coast is beautiful, but a bit intimidating for someone from the south, even if most don't intend to be.

I hope you come back many times and enjoy yourself as much as the last.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Clemnet

To add to Paul P's emendations, while Eire might look "poor," it is, in fact, more propserous (measuring GNP per capita) than the United Kingdom, and has been so since 1997.

Rich

[Paul P]

Rich

That's true. The small towns of Ireland probably are a little poorer as most of the wealth in Ireland would be centered around the big cities and major tourist towns.

Irish people don't call Ireland Eire. It is Irish (gaelic) for Ireland, but it is usually used by British and American people rather than the Irish. There are various reasons for this.

And Rich, you have to sample a broader range of whiskey on your next opportunity. I think you'll like what you get. By the way, Irish whiskey is more expensive in Ireland than most other places in Europe because of the large duties the government puts on it here.

Kind regards

Paul

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Paul

Having an Irish mother-in-law and having spent a lot of time on both sides of the Irish sea (and on both sides of the "border" on the island itself) I am very aware of the subtleties of names of peoples and places.  I use the word "Eire" because it requries fewer keystrokes than "Southern Ireland" or "The Irish Republic."  As for whisky, that superfluous "e" that the Irish place in its name says it all.  Stop beating a dead horse!  I've tried most of the best of both, and have concluded that your golf courses can hold up their head with the best in Scotland, but not your drams

Cheers

Rich

[Paul P]

Rich,

The first thing you should have learned from your experience of Irish people and the land is that we are always right  . I hope you have many years enjoying your scotch, and me many years with my Irish whiskey. Not so much that I can't hit the small ball.

Even America has some worthwhile versions of our golden spirit.

I dare say your thriftyness with the keystrokes won't stop you from denying me the last word.

Paul

PS, 'twas the Scots that took the e out rather than us putting it in, save they were accused of copying the original.

PPS, Bushmills make great Irish whiskey, but not the best Irish has to offer.

[Roger]

Ah yes, Rich, a classic case of substituting opinions with facts. You may prefer Scotch, but that doesn't take from the absolute quality of Irish whiskey. I'm a bit of an expert, you see, having worked in the distilling industry. I like both, but if Irish was marketed as successfully as Scotch, many more would be drinking it. In fact, Irish used to represent 60% of exported spirits, and now only represents 2%.

It's enough to say that the "experts" rate Irish as highly and higher than Scotch and blind taste tests usually confirm this with those who know less.

[Roger]

and on the links, I would say that Irish links are a little rougher around the edges. There is a little more variety in Irish links and maybe a little more quality in Scottish links. They have also had more years to iron out the quirkyness of some of the Scottish links. I could not say which I prefer.

[allysmith]

Roger,

Absolute nonsense on the Whisky front. There is no such thing as a typical Scottish Links or a typical Scottish Whisky.

I was born in a small county called Moray & Nairn where, in my opinion, the best Whisky and Golf in the world is produced.

I am not alone in this opinion and I guide you to that fine writer Herbert Warren Wind for further guidance.

In Moray and Nairn lie in what is called a 'rain shadow'. It is one of the most temperate areas in Britain and has a predominantly sandy subsoil. Great Links therefore abound with the free draining soils. I cite for example: Nairn (West of course) probably the finest greens in the world, Moray (Lossiemouth to the uninitiated) and further north the much vaunted Royal Dornoch.

On the whisky front we produce The Macallan, Glenfarclas, Black Bottle etc. etc.

Like our courses the whisky is mature, beautifully coloured and leaves a sweet aftertaste.

[Roger]

Ally,

I accept you links courses and your whisky are both great if you say so. I was not saying that Irish links are better than scottish ones, but saying what may be different from my experience.

Also on the whiskey front. My point was that just because Rich might prefer Scotch, it does not mean Irish is an inferior brand. Some "experts" prefer Irish, while others prefer Scotch. That was my point.

I do think that it is a great shame for whisk(e)y drinkers that a lot of Irish brands have disappeared for reasons other than their quality.

Middleton is my favourate whiskey. Would I prefer your brand if I tasted it - maybe or maybe not.

I admit my opinion on Links courses may not be as well informed as I have not played a hughe amount of Scottish links, although I have played a few.

[Ville Nurmi]

PAul P

Hello from Finland.

IŽll be coming to Dublin at the end of this month to study at the Trinity.

After 6 months of studying I hope that I can differ scottish links from Irish.

I hope that we can meet up some time and have a taste of the courses and whiskey

Best,

Ville Nurmi