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Sam Sikes

  • Karma: +0/-0
The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« on: April 24, 2006, 03:21:01 AM »
In reading the article about the heightened golf profile in the Sand Hills Region, it got me thinking.....

Here is the Scenario, and maybe someone will do it one day:

You just bought 10,000 acres in a very desolate region of the Sand Hills.  You have decided build a golf resort that will have 6 golf courses designed by 6 different living architects all starting construction on the same day.

You randomly assign the acreage to each of the 6 architects, for which they do not have a choice nor a preference.

Which architects would you choose, and whose course do you think would be the best?

I think I would choose:

Pete Dye
Tom Fazio
Tom Doak
Coore & Crenshaw
Jim Engh
Lester George

And Finally, do you think the project would work if you were able to purchase the land for a reasonable price, provide lodging, etc.?

I think it would be a pretty cool excercise.  Do you think the courses would be too homogenous in style to work in the long run.  Would the average (Decent) golfer be able to tell the difference, thus making the project successful financially?



« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 03:24:06 AM by Sam Sikes »

Jonathan McCord

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2006, 03:49:17 AM »
   Sam, this is very interesting!!!   Sounds a little like Mission Hills Golf Club over in China, since they would be breaking ground on a majority of courses all at once.  However, for this particular exercise I would pick the following architects.

1. Tom Doak (Quality Insured)
2. Tiger Woods (Instant Draw, No matter the result)
3. Greg Norman (Doonbeg looked very good)
4. Mike DeVries (Understands the Classics)
5. Tony Cashmore (Great work Abroad)
6. Mike Hurdzan, Dana Fry (Probably something very original)

    O.K. Tiger may be a bit of a stretch, but hell, I'd head out there to see Tiger's first design.  Originality and Contrast is a must!!! However bunkers like the ones at Augusta and such may be a bit out of place. ;)
       
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2006, 03:56:59 AM »
5. Tony Cashmore (Great work Abroad)

What great work are you referring to?

Mark_F

Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2006, 06:33:12 AM »
Chris,

I think he must be referring to Mr Cashmore's summer job during his University studies as a gravedigger in Cambodia in the 1970s.


Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2006, 06:39:37 AM »
I think he must be referring to Mr Cashmore's summer job during his University studies as a gravedigger in Cambodia in the 1970s.

I'm going to let that go through to the keeper Mark.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2006, 08:30:09 AM »

First, I would eliminate anybody who has built more than 50 courses or has a top 20 in any of the golf mags rankings... they don't need my help. Let's give some of the other guys a chance for a high profile gig.

My picks to interview:

                     Mike Devries
                     KBM
                     FBD - Martin Bonner
                     Mike Nuzzo
                     Jeff Mingay
                     Josh Taylor
                     Rod Whitman
                     Ian Andrews
                     Tony Ristola

Some of them I've met and some of them I just like their attitude.

ChasLawler

Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2006, 04:26:23 PM »
My six...

1. Gil Hanse – on the verge of becoming the next Doak & C&C. Better get him now while his ideas are still fresh.

2. Mike Devries – based solely on what I’ve seen at Kingsley, this guy needs another great site.

3. Jim Engh – cart golfers matter too

4. Cabell Robinson – he’s got a cool name, and I’ve heard good things about his work overseas.

5. Rees Jones – I’d like to see how he incorporates his mounding into that type of environment.

6. Tom Fazio  - marketing gold, plus I’d really like to see what he could do.


Sadly the golfing season is probably too short to sustain this type of venture.


and Sam…Lester George???   Please elaborate….

Ryan Farrow

Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2006, 04:59:11 PM »
Kyle Harris. It would certainly jumpstart his career. You know what you would get from the likes of a Reese Jones but you might just find the next great architect and/or course from some new blood.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2006, 05:02:22 PM »
That's Easy:

Kelly Blake Moran.....he's been waiting his whole life to build something great on a great piece of property

Gil Hanse......get's it and has it.

Mike DeVries......he's got the talent and the perserverence to find whats best there.

Jim Engh.....forget carts, he's actually wear out his moccasins in the Sand Hills

George Bahto.....how much fun would it be to have minimalism meet McDonald
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Sam Sikes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2006, 05:06:42 PM »
Cabell,

I would love to see what Lester would do on such a site.  I am very familiar with Kinloch, of course, and I would just like to how he would do a course in the sand hills.  Clearly I am biased here, but I think it would be cool.

Sam

« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 05:07:26 PM by Sam Sikes »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2006, 05:27:14 PM »
I'd add Jeffrey Brauer, and although I haven't played any of his courses, based on pictures, I like the work Brian Silva appears to do
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2006, 05:41:32 PM »
Well, Coore & Crenshaw have had their crack at the Sand Hills, and Doak did Ballyneal on similar land, so how about some others:

(1) Gil Hanse
(2) Mike DeVries
(I haven't played either of their courses, but am very much looking forward to it)
(3) David Kidd (to see what a Scot would do with the land and to see what Kidd can do away from Bandon)
(4) Keith Foster (his courses in Colorado--Buffalo Run and Haymaker--show promise for this kind of project)
(5) Hurdzan/Fry (see Foster above)
(6) Ed Getka and 3 GCAers of his choosing.  

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2006, 06:39:55 PM »
Doak
Hanse
Devries
The Ghost of Mike Strantz
The firm of Shackleford/Naccarato
Brian Phillips
Mike Nuzzo
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

ChasLawler

Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2006, 07:08:07 PM »
Cabell,

I would love to see what Lester would do on such a site.  I am very familiar with Kinloch, of course, and I would just like to how he would do a course in the sand hills.  Clearly I am biased here, but I think it would be cool.

Fair enough - you are a homer.

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2006, 07:40:23 PM »
1. Devries/Hancock ;)
2. Hurdzan/Fry
3. Axland/Proctor
4. Doug Carrick
5. Ray Hearn
6. Bobby Weed
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 07:40:52 PM by Doug Sobieski »

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Constructive Censorship
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2006, 07:56:29 PM »
Quote
Chris,

I think he must be referring to Mr Cashmore's summer job during his University studies as a gravedigger in Cambodia in the 1970s.

Jeez, Mark. First you call Alister Mackenzie a hack on the 'Sandbelt' thread and now you imply another architect was an active member of Pol Pot's regime. And, to think, my post comparing Tom Meeks to members of the Third Reich got deleted...  :o
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 07:57:45 PM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2006, 09:20:30 PM »
1. T Doak
2. Coore & Crenshaw
3. P Dye
4. G Norman & B Harrison
5. M Clayton
6. K Pallier in associate with anyone else :)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2006, 02:39:51 AM »
If an architect and a golfer team can do it at Sebonack, then lets pair some more up.
Tom Doak and David Toms (A marriage made in heaven?)
Gil Hanse and Jack Nicklaus (Rustic River Hills?)
Kelly Blake Moran and Tiger Woods
Mike Devries and Ernie Els
Bill Coore and well um? let me think...how about Gentle Ben

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2006, 03:03:36 AM »
I would love to put Urbina, Hepner, Slawnik, Schneider, Iverson and Placek each to work on their own 18 holes and reserve the right to edit a bit as they go.

Or maybe I'd kick one of those guys off the team and save one of the 18's for myself!

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2006, 07:56:54 AM »
I'd vote for the following design teams:

Klein-Liddy
Shackelford-Hanse
Naccarato-Eckenrode
Bahto-Silva
Ran Morrissett-Moran

and invite Tom Fazio, Jack Nicklaus, Rees Jones, Art Hills and Tom Doak to write about the finished courses

wsmorrison

Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2006, 08:14:29 AM »
Forgetting the obvious site favorites for this exercise in fantasy, how about:

Tom Paul and Kye Goalby:  bound to be something never or rarely seen in golf design such as courses within a course, extreme width and lots of thought provoking presentations--real head scratchers

Ran Morrisett and anyone he chooses:  how cool would that be?  

Ian Andrew:  He'd devote more of himself into a project than anyone I know

Bobby Weed:  I haven't seen anything of his that I haven't really liked

A collaboration of myself and a few GCAers:  with 4 other great courses, let's see how we can screw up the fifth--or maybe surprise the heck out of people

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2006, 12:14:50 PM »
Not too long ago I spoke with a rancher who was considering doing a golf course on his 33,000 acre ranch in the Sand Hills of Nebraska.  I proposed doing a project with the same vision as this thread proposes. One difference was that all designs were to be done for $1. That would take out the high fee architects ala Nicklaus, Fazio, etc.

To respond to designers I would like to see:

1. Rod Whitman
2. Kye Goalby
3. Keith Sparkman
4. Bobby Weed
5. Paul Hermsmeyer/R Farris

Sorry Paul I had to get myself in there somewhere.  
Perhaps I should contact the Super 8 folks to see if we can put up a hotel and get the ball rolling.

As an aside Paul Hermsmeyer and my brother ran cross-country togther in the Sand Hills so local knowledge is covered.

As for the season - put a stocking cap on and suck it up like the locals.  There is nothing more fun than perfectly smashing a two iron into the teeth of a blue northern only to see it go 150 yards  :).

Sam Sikes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2006, 01:05:55 PM »
i appreciate all of the answers to this question, but no one has really gotten to the core of what I was asking.  Part of the reason I chose the architects I did is because I think it would be a draw for the general public.

secondly, do you think such a project in the sand hills COULD work.  Those of you who know what the land could be purchased for, and what the golf courses could be built for and how many rounds would have to be played at a certain price to make it profitable, given the short season.  Based on trying to make the place profitable, without sacrificing the integrity of the project, who would you choose.

sam


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2006, 09:08:35 AM »
Sam:

No sense in trying to be realistic on here ...

If you are looking for marketability for a public venue, you've probably got the top six pretty close, although you should probably find room for David Kidd in there somewhere, or maybe Greg Norman.  

Really, though, I'm not sure that too many designers' names carry marketing sizzle for the public at large.  My name doesn't have much, although like David's, you get to reference our work in Bandon.  Bill Coore's name isn't well known to the public, though his partner's is.  I don't even know if Tom Fazio's name is much of a draw for a resort golf course -- where's the mega-successful resort with his name on it?  In the long run, a resort wins or loses because it's good golf and not because of the name; and even in the short run, a no-name architect can attract as much attention as the name if the product is great and it's marketed correctly.  (See: Bandon Dunes.)

As for cost-effectiveness, you could build these courses for $2 million each, maybe $1.5 million each due to the efficiencies of scale.  But are six courses more of a draw than one really good one ... and is there a market for six courses that far out in the center of the country?  That's a pretty big leap of faith, and so far no one has had the guts to take the leap.


Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The best architect-Constructive Excercise
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2006, 01:33:23 PM »
If I had the resources to build six golf courses, there's no question I'd do one myself. I'd hire a technically knowledgable architect and landscape designer to help me out. But I couldn't resist. Besides, if I mess up too badly, it could always be bulldozed later. (!?)

I realize I'm getting a bit further from the topic, but if you had the resources for six courses at moderate cost, how many of you would at least try to do one yourself?

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