[Eric Smith]

I didn't play Boyne, but I played Bay Harbor.

I hate to just come out and say this, but if viewed for just the golf, I thought it was one of the worst high-end courses I've ever played.   Nothing - and I do mean nothing - about that course worked for me.  If there's a posterchild for "blind evil" that's the course.  It's unwalkable, unwieldy and unwelcoming.

It's in fine shape.  It's pretty as hell.  It's got nice shiny new carts. 

Perhaps this latest review on golfclubatlas kick starts their new marketing campaign...Shivas you're a genius!

[Ronald Montesano]

It's not unwalkable, either, in spite of the new marketing campaign.  Bay Harbor is a solid track with spectacular viewing.  I'm not getting the precise nature of your dislike, Irons.  Could you elaborate a wee dram?

[David Neveux]

I have a really hard time believing that

A.  The powers that be would let you walk
B.  Anyone would attempt to walk given the mile long stretches between some holes
C.  Pace of play if you were to walk

[Ronald Montesano]

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about...nicely presented.  Of course, I agree with next to none of it, but I applaud your passion and your counter-enthusiasm.  The only serious walk on the Links course is from 8 green to 9 tee, and 9, we do agree, is a misfit toy.  The uphill and downhill movement occurs from tee to green, not from green to tee.  The Quarry is another story but, lordy, it's in a quarry!  If you play a quarry course (Merion, CC Buffalo, Black Diamond Ranch, et al.) you have to be a numbskull to imagine that the walks will be gentle ones.  The walking is what Scott Hoch said makes golfers athletes!

Did you watch Ryan Palmer carry his driver onto the 5th green at Ridgewood today?  It didn't hold.  The point of a driveable par four (and I think you were referencing the 5th hole at Links) is that a lucky bounce gets you on/close, or it sends you careening toward the armpits of Hell...rub of the green. 

The two par threes on Links do play downhill, but one is a pitch of 140 yards while the other goes about 180, as I recall.  The first allows for the Redan effect while the second demands a straight shot to a less-angled green.  The Links succeeds in that it does not stray from its purpose for 8 holes. 

I'm guessing that the clubhouse could have been located farther out and another hole added along the water to Links.  The 9th on Quarry is along the water, and it's a shame that they couldn't swap 9 Quarry with 9 Links and maintain the integrity of the two nines.  9 Links sure belongs on Quarry or the unseen Preserve.

The Quarry course is an edgier nine and has to suffer the wrath of those who prefer less jagged looks and more rounded features.  The 6th hole, the driveable par four, is nowhere near any other tee ball, so I don't understand that reference.  The third sits high above it, to the north, while the fifth is way off to the south.  The green on five sits well below the tee on six, so no threat of wayward strike is apparent there, either.  With all the marsh surrounding that sixth green, why would you try to drive it, Hercules?

The Quarry is a penal course.  You have forced carries on six, seven and eight, along with near-forced carries on other holes.  However, they are usually measurable in that you can either play up a tee deck to shorten the poke or lay up down the fairway to shorten the launch.

[Andy Troeger]

Anybody played Ironbridge in Colorado? Something tells me that Hills course makes these other ones look like EASY walks by comparison!

Some very interesting holes though (generally in a good way); Doug Ralston, you would absolutely love this course! I forget the website...maybe www.ironbridgegolf.com. The routing is VERY spread out, its on the website plus some photos.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm looking at a picture of the first green right now, from about 100 yards out.  The mounding back right is nothing unlike other holes on other courses.  The left side is protected by a pot bunker and more mounding...is that the stuff of which you speak?  The marsh is pretty close on all sides, but as I recall, it wasn't much of an approach shot in...about a 9-iron.  If you're cutting drivers 275 into par fours, you had best be able to keep a 9-iron short of the mounds, Chivas.

[Ronald Montesano]

I can't see them, so I'll put my trust in you and agree.

[Adam Clayman]

Mr. Montesano,@ Bay Harbor, There must have been some communication lapse between the design plans and the actually building.
Numerous areas on the quarry nine were just a tad bit higher than they needed to be for proper golf. The subsequent inability to see anything of significance in the distance is just one of the courses shortfalls.

Why Mr. Hills insists on putting his unnecessary mounding on almost every green site, exaggerating the hand of man, is an afront to the senses.

BTW, The decent par 5 up the bluff on the links has a gapping hand of man to the left of the safe LZ up the hill. Besides it hideousness, it's value as a hazard is only surpassed by it's ambiguous nature.

[Ronald Montesano]

Mr. Montesano,@ Bay Harbor, There must have been some communication lapse between the design plans and the actually building.
Numerous areas on the quarry nine were just a tad bit higher than they needed to be for proper golf. The subsequent inability to see anything of significance in the distance is just one of the courses shortfalls.

I don't know what "a tad bit higher than they needed to be for proper golf" means.  I had no problem with any of the teeing grounds, as the plays to the fairways from teeing grounds would release on all but the most saturated days.  I don't believe that there has to be a prescribed angle of delivery range for tee shots up or down hills.  The two par fives on the Quarry nine flow incredibly well.  The only impossible shot (which I barely pulled off) is the tee ball on number seven from the tips.  That's why they call them the tips.

Why Mr. Hills insists on putting his unnecessary mounding on almost every green site, exaggerating the hand of man, is an afront to the senses.

BTW, The decent par 5 up the bluff on the links has a gapping hand of man to the left of the safe LZ up the hill. Besides it hideousness, it's value as a hazard is only surpassed by it's ambiguous nature.

I presume that a gapping hand of man is a reference to a bunker.  What's the difference between some sand and some high fescue?  Each extracts a penalty stroke.  From the fairway below you cannot see the bunkers, at least in the photos I took.  Its nature is that of a framing bunker, its value as a hazard is to take the too-safe route out of play.  There is plenty of room on the left for a safe lay up.  Other than #9 on Links, I cannot argue with the quality of golf presented on that portion of Bay Harbor.

[Adam Clayman]

I was referring to the fairways not the teeing grounds. Also, the hand of man was not necessarily the bunker shapes. I recall several holes on both courses where there were oversized moguls placed in strange areas for apparently strange reasons. Drainage could not have been the motive for such earth moving, as far as I could tell. They honelstly looked like they were placed there to either pad the bill or create visual interest of some sort. Improperly done, they are jarring to the eye.

A critical eye could see that the Links/Quarry course made little to no use of intelligent design. Sorry you saw it differently.

I did like one hole. The 2nd on the quarry. The par 3 with the front left seemlessly blending into the green was sexy.

[Brian Cenci]

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about...nicely presented.  Of course, I agree with next to none of it, but I applaud your passion and your counter-enthusiasm.  The only serious walk on the Links course is from 8 green to 9 tee, and 9, we do agree, is a misfit toy.  The uphill and downhill movement occurs from tee to green, not from green to tee.  The Quarry is another story but, lordy, it's in a quarry!  If you play a quarry course (Merion, CC Buffalo, Black Diamond Ranch, et al.) you have to be a numbskull to imagine that the walks will be gentle ones.  The walking is what Scott Hoch said makes golfers athletes!

Did you watch Ryan Palmer carry his driver onto the 5th green at Ridgewood today?  It didn't hold.  The point of a driveable par four (and I think you were referencing the 5th hole at Links) is that a lucky bounce gets you on/close, or it sends you careening toward the armpits of Hell...rub of the green. 

The two par threes on Links do play downhill, but one is a pitch of 140 yards while the other goes about 180, as I recall.  The first allows for the Redan effect while the second demands a straight shot to a less-angled green.  The Links succeeds in that it does not stray from its purpose for 8 holes. 

I'm guessing that the clubhouse could have been located farther out and another hole added along the water to Links.  The 9th on Quarry is along the water, and it's a shame that they couldn't swap 9 Quarry with 9 Links and maintain the integrity of the two nines.  9 Links sure belongs on Quarry or the unseen Preserve.

The Quarry course is an edgier nine and has to suffer the wrath of those who prefer less jagged looks and more rounded features.  The 6th hole, the driveable par four, is nowhere near any other tee ball, so I don't understand that reference.  The third sits high above it, to the north, while the fifth is way off to the south.  The green on five sits well below the tee on six, so no threat of wayward strike is apparent there, either.  With all the marsh surrounding that sixth green, why would you try to drive it, Hercules?

The Quarry is a penal course.  You have forced carries on six, seven and eight, along with near-forced carries on other holes.  However, they are usually measurable in that you can either play up a tee deck to shorten the poke or lay up down the fairway to shorten the launch.

Ronald,
     From #2 green to #3 tee isn't long?  Same being for I think it is #6 green to #7 tee?  Those are long stretches.  I've walked some pretty hilly courses in America: Lakota Canyon, Greywalls and Leelenau Club at Bahlee Farms so I wouldn't write of the unwalkability because of the terrain.  To me at Bay Harbor there are just some odd things going on.  Like off the tee on #7 where you literally have no idea where you are aiming.  Also, on #12 why is it that the fairway isn't lower so you can see the entire hole.  To me, along that ridge, that would make for a much better setup having a par 5 wrap around the bluff of the quarry...rather than 2 back to back blind shots.  And why the double fairway, risk/reward on #4?  There really isn't a risk or reward as it is 1 fairway.  Simply drive it down the right side or middle and everything feeds left down to the "second" fairway area.  On the tee the GPs tries to get you to either go for it left or lay up right and that's certainly not the case. 

-Brian

[John_Conley]

Here is a thread titled "Does Arthur Hills work for Free?"  It has the same arguments made in this month's thread.  And it references another thread from years before this that was essentially the same.

[Craig Van Egmond]

John,

       Its always the same... every 18 - 24 months we have to go through it again... been like that for 10 years. 

[Doug Wright]

John,

       Its always the same... every 18 - 24 months we have to go through it again... been like that for 10 years. 

Craig,

...not that there's anything wrong with that... 

[Craig Van Egmond]

John,

       Its always the same... every 18 - 24 months we have to go through it again... been like that for 10 years. 

Craig,

...not that there's anything wrong with that... 

Exactly! Someone might have missed the earlier versions....

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