Does Arthur Hills work for Free?

[John Kavanaugh]

Barney; I don't know why you're concerned  about familiarity, we've played golf and you know I am not a formal person.  I just think that being a a"regular guy" is not mutually exclusive with having good manners.  That's the way I was raised and I think my folks were (and remain) correct.  Citing the habits of the majority of the american public as a way to persuade me about the proper way to behave won't go very far I'm afraid.  I'm no snob but my standards are higher.  If that is all you expect I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this one.

Shelly,

I'm not a fan or rude people or rudeness so I can't agree to disagree about that...I'm at a loss defending Glenn on this subject even if it can be preceived that some people think I am only defending myself.  It is going to be interesting today paying attention to examples of rudeness during the day and examining the motivation of the offender...even if or when it is me.  I'll see if their opinions can be dismissed or should be taken with a so called grain of salt and report back.  I have a feeling you may have me on this one...

[Craig Disher]

Just a side comment on Dayton CC -

I provided the club with an aerial from 1938 which showed fairly convincingly that the course was a Ross design.

Craig, why does a 1938 aerial convincingly show Ross designed the course?  

Green shapes, positions of bunkers. If it wasn't a Ross design, there was someone around Dayton who had seen a lot of his work and could do a good imitation.

Mike - as far as I know, no one has found a Ross plan for DCC. I checked with the Tufts Archives last year and they had nothing either.

[Glenn Spencer]

John Kavanaugh,


If you are in support of my position Hills I appreciate it, I just never knew it. I thought you were having a discussion about peoples manners. I don't have a problem with that. If you look at my individual responses to people that were cordial or pleasant to me, you will see that my responses were the same. When someone just casts out an ignorant statement saying what my post was trying to do, I got annoyed. I post a variety of topics on this site and have never had one discussion with Mike Young before, where does he come up with the idea of what I am trying to do by posting what I posted? Then he takes the position of telling me(not saying, hey is there a chance Dayton is not a Ross) who didn't design Dayton. Then he says that is boring to argue with me, when he started the argument. I think that is poor manners. My manners? I guess they are in question because of the way I talked about Hills' work. I just don't see why this guy is not allowed to be talked about. In my mind he is a public figure and always will be. I didn't make one post on the cart path thread. I understand that he has to please owners and keep pace of play up. I just don't like his golf courses and I feel sorry for the little towns that take their one chance to build something that people will come to their town and spend a little money and they end up having to sell and lose a bunch of money. How is it bad manners to take a man to task for this. Especially if it is still going on, years and years later. It would be different if Longaberger was built in 85 or something, but it was 99 and I have a problem with what was done there.

[Mike_Young]

Just a side comment on Dayton CC -

I provided the club with an aerial from 1938 which showed fairly convincingly that the course was a Ross design.

Craig, why does a 1938 aerial convincingly show Ross designed the course?  

Green shapes, positions of bunkers. If it wasn't a Ross design, there was someone around Dayton who had seen a lot of his work and could do a good imitation.

Mike - as far as I know, no one has found a Ross plan for DCC. I checked with the Tufts Archives last year and they had nothing either.

Craig,
Thanks for the update.  I have seen your research efforts b4 thru Wayne M and TE Paul and appreciate what you do for helping all of us in research of the old courses.  IMHO once one is on the ground at Dayton it doesn't show much Ross to me.  And from discussions with older members and the golf professional it was pretty clear that no one thought Ross did the original layout and if anything came by when in town (probably with Miami Lakes) to look around.  therefore it is possible someone.  For myself,
I just can't call a golf course a Ross course because he commented or sent in some green plans.  There were many times where a club will call itself a Ross when he had nothing to do with the original and just spent a day while in town a few years later.  It is great for PR.  I even think East Lake will fit into that category even though he may have made some routing changes.   AND that is where I think DCC differs.  I think the routing has been much the same since 1898.  JMO

[Jim Nugent]

Mike - as far as I know, no one has found a Ross plan for DCC. I checked with the Tufts Archives last year and they had nothing either.

Did Ross design any other courses without plans?  Or would DCC be a first?  And does the fact that no one has found any, mean there definitely were none?    

Pretty interesting question about Ross and DCC.  Seems like some good points on both sides.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

You are such an expert on this Ross thing it amazes me. Are you maybe referring to Miami Shores? Could he have designed the golf course when he was in town to do Miami Valley? How about Piqua? Did all of these golf courses just make up the fact that Ross designed their golf course? If you knew anything at all about Dayton, you would know that Dayton has no reason whatsoever to promote itself and the members know as much about golf as they do Britney Spears. I guess one doesn't find out everything on a trip into town to talk to the professional and a few members do they?

[Craig Disher]

Mike,
I'm sure you're right about there not being much Ross on the ground now. But comparing some of  the 38-49 features to Ross's Miami Valley from the same era shows a lot of similarity. However, MV looks consistent throughout while DCC looks like a makeover.

I don't know what the club's intentions were but they seemed very interested in knowing about the old design. A renovation using the 38-49 aerials as a guideline would create a more classic style than what appears to be there now. And I think the best parts of the course pre-49 were due to Ross.

Jim,
I'm not a Ross authority but I think it's widely accepted that many of his designs were done without his ever visiting the site. I don't think that's the case with DCC although the degree of his involvement may never be known.

[Glenn Spencer]

It could be, he could have gone right past it repeatedly to get to Miami Shores or Miami Valley or Piqua. Apparently Dayton is just the ugly stepsister here.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

You are such an expert on this Ross thing it amazes me. Are you maybe referring to Miami Shores? Could he have designed the golf course when he was in town to do Miami Valley? How about Piqua? Did all of these golf courses just make up the fact that Ross designed their golf course? If you knew anything at all about Dayton, you would know that Dayton has no reason whatsoever to promote itself and the members know as much about golf as they do Britney Spears. I guess one doesn't find out everything on a trip into town to talk to the professional and a few members do they?

Sorry I meant to say Miami Valley.  Good golf course.  There is proof of it being a DR course with pplans and visits.  Same for Picqua.  
PROVE TO ME DCC WAS A ROSS COURSE .....

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
I'm sure you're right about there not being much Ross on the ground now. But comparing some of  the 38-49 features to Ross's Miami Valley from the same era shows a lot of similarity. However, MV looks consistent throughout while DCC looks like a makeover.

I don't know what the club's intentions were but they seemed very interested in knowing about the old design. A renovation using the 38-49 aerials as a guideline would create a more classic style than what appears to be there now. And I think the best parts of the course pre-49 were due to Ross.

Jim,
I'm not a Ross authority but I think it's widely accepted that many of his designs were done without his ever visiting the site. I don't think that's the case with DCC although the degree of his involvement may never be known.

Craig,
The club was considering a masterplan at thew time of my vivsits and were interviewing different architects.  I believe Paul albanese is doing the masterplan.  In the several meetings I had they commented that Ross had been there once but that the routing was done years b4 by someone else.  I do believe it is possible someone form the construction of Miamai Valley may hae done some work there but I do't think Ross was ever formally involved from what I could gather.  

[Glenn Spencer]

No, you meant to say Miami Shores. Miami Valley is a different golf club. It hosted the last match play PGA in 57, but I am sure that you knew that already.

[Mike_Young]

No, you meant to say Miami Shores. Miami Valley is a different golf club. It hosted the last match play PGA in 57, but I am sure that you knew that already.

Miami Valley and Picqua were around the same time Ross was in Dayton....Miami shores was some 25 to 30 years later....
Show me where DR did Dayton CC.

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

Every golf association acknowledges it, the man was in town to work on several other courses. The course feels like a DR (to me anyway) I think he is one of the few capable of building a reasonable golf course on that small piece of land. Are you giving him Piqua or no? Miami Valley- is a yes right. How about Miami Shores, is that for sure or no?

[Craig Disher]

A Dayton CC member told me that according to the club minutes Ross was given a contract in 1919 to design the course. At least that indicates that he was in contact with the club although it doesn't answer the question of whether he visited the club or supervised any work there.

[Glenn Spencer]

It is apparent that you must be a working architect to be correct about anything on this site. I am sorry for actually disagreeing with you Mike, it has been made abundantly clear that Ross did not do Dayton Country Club. I am sorry for my poor manners, I should have never defended myself considering that you are an architect and I am not. I am not even sure if you are referring to the right course based on the Georgia mix-up from the other thread, but it does not matter because you are an architect and I am just a lowly golfer that likes DR and other great architects. I apololgize!!!!

[Mike_Young]

A Dayton CC member told me that according to the club minutes Ross was given a contract in 1919 to design the course. At least that indicates that he was in contact with the club although it doesn't answer the question of whether he visited the club or supervised any work there.

Craig,
I was told the same thing  probably by the same member.  Supposedly a contract was offered to him while he was in town but no records thereafter and the course existed at the time he was there. thanks for the info.

[BCrosby]

Glenn -

I don't know who is right or wrong in your fuss with Mike. I can tell you that this site represents a tremendous amount of knowledge. Use it, learn from it, enjoy it. But don't take this stuff personally. Nobody is playing gottcha's.

Bob

P.S. A dark thought. Are we sure that East Lake is a Ross course? What's the evidence? Just askin'.

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, you are indeed a sh*t disturber!

But wasn't East Lake originally a Bendelow with Ross making changes?  Is the routing the original?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is hard to believe any topic could last this long without Pat Mucci
or TE Paul or both carrying the ball.  

[BCrosby]

Bill -

EL was a Bendelow course. It was substantially re-routed by Ross (that's the working assumption) in 1922 and, essentially, a new course was built.

The reason I was askin' is because there's not much evidence I know of for Ross's 1922 redo. The EL clubhouse burned in the mid-20's. I assume lots of records were lost.

It's not clear to me what hard evidence is out there that it is a Ross course. I would love to hear from someone that can nail it down.

Bob  

[Mike_Young]

It is apparent that you must be a working architect to be correct about anything on this site. I am sorry for actually disagreeing with you Mike, it has been made abundantly clear that Ross did not do Dayton Country Club. I am sorry for my poor manners, I should have never defended myself considering that you are an architect and I am not. I am not even sure if you are referring to the right course based on the Georgia mix-up from the other thread, but it does not matter because you are an architect and I am just a lowly golfer that likes DR and other great architects. I apololgize!!!!

In the post above you are insinuating.....and that s ok...I will accept the apology if you feel you need it....but personally your arguing with me doesn't bother me at all.  You should always defend yourself...I just could not find the defense of DCC in any of the discussion....it is mostly hearsay and probably will be....sorry you consider yourself a "lowly" golfer....if it wasn't for golfers architects would be out of work so I certainly do not consider you lowly....And I also like DR and other dead architects....but I do not think he did 400 courses in his lifetime.  I think it is fair to say that most of the modern architects only list their completed projects on their resumes, I know I do .  but in certain instances I have seen some of this "restoration expert" resume stuff where they would have 50 to 100 courses listed and when you got down to it...they just stopped by a course one day, spent some time with the super and informed him what they would do with one bunker.  I think DR did a lot of that.
A Ross historian that wishes not to be named sent me this email today..
take it however you wish....we may never know..
Mike
It has been brought to my attention there is debate brewing about Dayton CC & if Ross designed it. I've never played the course so I can't relate any personal observations regarding any Ross characteristics the course may or may not have but I have researched Ross and which courses can positively attributed to him based on historic documentation.

The best source is Ross himself and a booklet he produced that listed most of his designs and major re-designs (published around 1930) - Dayton is not listed. Miami Valley is the only Dayton design on that list. The Tufts archives in Pinehurst is another great source. The Tufts has files on all of his courses and they separate his courses into three categories - courses where they have his plans plus other documentation (magazine articles, newspaper clippings, letters, etc), courses where they have some documentation (some with more compelling info than others) but no plans and the last category, no supporting information and no plans. Dayton falls into the last category.

If I'm not mistaken Dayton was founded in 1905, long before Ross was designing golf courses. Maybe they moved to a new location in 1919, maybe  he redesigned an existing nine or eighteen in 1919, maybe Ross was consulted while he was designing Miami Valley, maybe....

The truth will come out at some point you might as well dig it up now as much as it might pain the club, it might be in the best interest in the long run.

BobC,
EL  as you say maybe some Ross but Bendelow....
Tiger,
Yep I agree...no TE or Pat and this thing has seen 220 replies and 4500 hits in 4 days.....

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

You might want to check on your definition of insinuating. The golf course may or may not have been designed by DR at this point. Those words from your source could certainly be damning evidence that it was not or he could have simply overlooked it (not likely) in his documents. Maybe DR's definition of a restoration or a re-design are different than yours or mine. Your friends words say that it listed most of his designs, it is very possible that he forgot Dayton or left it off just like some of the other courses that weren't mentioned. I doubt he thought it was ever going to be a great golf course and might not have been all that proud of his work there, noone knows for sure. The problem I have is that you have been all over me from the start of this thread trying to compare me to someone else- that is pathetic. I make a comment and you know everything that I am trying to do before I even get a chance to say it. I think a lot of animosity would have been avoided between the two of us if you had suggested that maybe DR didn't do Dayton, but no,you thought you knew because you were there and you made it clear that you knew you were right. As it turns out, you may be, but there is just as much evidence to say that you are not. In a courtroom, I thing this case would be a hung jury. I don't think that is the way you broached the subject with me. If you would like to accept my apology you can, but I was being 100% facetious. For the record, I never said anything about positive or can't miss that it was a DR, I merely was using it as an example, I said Donald Ross because that is what every book says, you are the one elevated the discussion, not me.

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

I would also like to say that while I am no Ross historian, I have played about 30? of his golf courses and read about probably 150-200 if they are his anyway. I think Dayton has some Ross flavor to it to say the least. I read that you do not think of it as a Ross routing, how can anyone be blamed for how they do a course on 98 acres? As Craig Disher so correctly said 'either it was a Ross or somebody hanging around Dayton really knew what the hell they were doing' The omission from his booklet could be the most telling thing or the smallest oversight we don't know. There was a contract between DR and the club though. I see your point about some of the other golf courses claiming DR. Dayton is in no position to do that, I think it is a different case.

P.S.-Does your friend only think Miami Valley in the area?

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

I would also like to say that while I am no Ross historian, I have played about 30? of his golf courses and read about probably 150-200 if they are his anyway. I think Dayton has some Ross flavor to it to say the least. I read that you do not think of it as a Ross routing, how can anyone be blamed for how they do a course on 98 acres? As Craig Disher so correctly said 'either it was a Ross or somebody hanging around Dayton really knew what the hell they were doing' The omission from his booklet could be the most telling thing or the smallest oversight we don't know. There was a contract between DR and the club though. I see your point about some of the other golf courses claiming DR. Dayton is in no position to do that, I think it is a different case.

P.S.-Does your friend only think Miami Valley in the area?

I still say it is not a DR. I have seen nothing to make me think otherwise.  No one has said there was a contract.  the minutes said one was offered to him but nothing from that point frward says it was accepted.  And I have seen several very good courses on less than 100 acres.
The booklet Ross did was 1930 any other Ross work in Dayton was after that time...so yes, MV was the only one at that time.
And if you have animosity that is your deal....just be glad your dealing with me instead of TE, Pat or Tom McW.   this thread could go to 10000 hits.

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

You said you played the golf course a couple of times, can you tell me what about it besides the routing makes you think that it was not DR. I am surprised by this. I would think that 1,2,5,6,8,11,12,13,16,17 and 18 could very easily be DR. So, the one thing we have not discussed about this is, if not DR then who?