[Tim Pitner]

That cartpath is awful--not only is it an eyesore, it looks like it could be very much in play in a left to right wind.

[Mike Hendren]

As consumers and members of the golf world, we have every right to bash and tell an architect that his work or his dog's is not appreciated.

True, but very unbecoming.

Mike

[Mike_Cirba]

That cartpath is awful--not only is it an eyesore, it looks like it could be very much in play in a left to right wind.

Tim,

Yes, but perhaps my least favorite Hills cartpath (ironically, on what is one of my favorite of Hills' courses, Maryland National), is this beauty.





This short par 4 has plenty of options off the tee box. A meandering creek extends from the right of the forward tee box to the left side of the green. The overhanging limbs of the Ash tree to the left of the green await even the slightest mistake. Aggressive play could be rewarded with an eagle chance should you thread the needle. A lay up area short of the creek may appeal to the more conservative player.

[Glenn Spencer]

Bogey,

I am missing it, what is unbecoming about it? I paid money that I have earned and time away from work or girlfriend that I want to enjoy and I don't like his product. How is he any different than a chef that a critic writes about or a comic or  a movie. Why is Hills off limits? I am not challenging you or anything, I would just like to know why it is taboo to say something about an architect, when everyone else is panned when they screw up.

[David Ober]

That cartpath is awful--not only is it an eyesore, it looks like it could be very much in play in a left to right wind.

Tim,

Yes, but perhaps my least favorite Hills cartpath (ironically, on what is one of my favorite of Hills' courses, Maryland National), is this beauty.



This short par 4 has plenty of options off the tee box. A meandering creek extends from the right of the forward tee box to the left side of the green. The overhanging limbs of the Ash tree to the left of the green await even the slightest mistake. Aggressive play could be rewarded with an eagle chance should you thread the needle. A lay up area short of the creek may appeal to the more conservative player.

What are you talking about?! That's a GREAT cartpath!! You All you have to do is aim for the cart path, bomb your drive down the left side, and VIOLA! Eagle opportunity!!!  

[Brad Klein]

Much preferred the original title to this thread - was funny and suggestive like nothing else I have ever seen on GCA.

[Glenn Spencer]

Brad,

Back in on Bluestar!- Wall Street.  I missed the old title myself, I should have never given in, but oh well.

[Mike Hendren]

Bogey,

I paid money that I have earned and time away from work or girlfriend that I want to enjoy and I don't like his product.

Glenn,

In my opinion, consumption is a poor justification for impugning a man's professional integrity.  Perhaps I've misinterpreted your written words.  I'm guilty of that all too often.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Doug Sobieski]

Bogey,

I am missing it, what is unbecoming about it? I paid money that I have earned and time away from work or girlfriend that I want to enjoy and I don't like his product. How is he any different than a chef that a critic writes about or a comic or  a movie. Why is Hills off limits? I am not challenging you or anything, I would just like to know why it is taboo to say something about an architect, when everyone else is panned when they screw up.

I was thinking about this thread yesterday in terms of movie reviews and famous actors. Maybe Art Hills is the Adam Sandler of golf course architects (paid a lot of money, decent funnyman, but not a critics choice). Or maybe Ben Stiller. A couple years ago, Ben Stiller must have been in 80% of all movies that came out that year. There were a couple laughs here and there, but on the whole, none of them were worth seeing twice, or maybe you wait to see it on DVD. But you knew what you were getting when you paid your money, so you can't complain  

[Glenn Spencer]

Doug,

Yes, this is true. I did know what I was getting. The problem that I run into is I trust other people more than I should. I thought the course was getting all these great reviews and all this. Shell was there, CPC, all these nice things. I should have just looked at my computer and remembered that Freddy was the handler and that should have done it. I just wish that people would stop saying I like this golf course or that golf course because it has some good holes and it was fun to play. A golf course should not have any of his bad holes on it. A truly bad, bad hole can ruin a golf course and Hills pushes the envelope anywhere from 2-8 times on every golf course that I have seen.

[ed_getka]

Glenn,
   The simple solution to the problem is to never go to a golf course without checking here first. I have not played one course I didn't like that was strongly recommended here. It is one of the greatest attributes of this site.

[Tim Pitner]

That cartpath is awful--not only is it an eyesore, it looks like it could be very much in play in a left to right wind.

Tim,

Yes, but perhaps my least favorite Hills cartpath (ironically, on what is one of my favorite of Hills' courses, Maryland National), is this beauty.





This short par 4 has plenty of options off the tee box. A meandering creek extends from the right of the forward tee box to the left side of the green. The overhanging limbs of the Ash tree to the left of the green await even the slightest mistake. Aggressive play could be rewarded with an eagle chance should you thread the needle. A lay up area short of the creek may appeal to the more conservative player.

Mike, that is a gem.  Perhaps Fazio is somewhat correct--for some architects, maybe one of their most valuable contributions would be to hide cart paths.  

I love the hole description.  Exactly what play is there to the green if "the more conservative player" were to lay up short of the creek?  From the graphic, there doesn't appear to be any real option short of the creek.  This reminds me of a similar hole at Hills' Legacy Ridge course in Colorado, except there the possible (but silly) iron lay up short of a creek is on a par 5.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Tim,

You also have to love the lay-up strategies from the front tees.  

When was the last time you chose to drive it 25 yards?  

[Glenn Spencer]

I can't seem to cut and paste the picture for some reason, but if you use the link on page 4 of this thread, Newport National #14 has a cart path with a golf hole getting in the way.

[JLahrman]

I have played eight Arthur Hills courses in four states. Some of his holes are awesome. However, the problem I see with his work, is that there are at least two holes on each course that make you just gasp in horror.

#6 and #18 at Pipestone

Jesse

How are you leaving off #9 at Pipestone?  A 370 yard par 4 that requires a five iron off the tee to lay up short of a huge weed field that one must carry to reach the green.  It simultaneously gives the good player no choices, while putting in a hazard that only penalizes the higher handicapper.  Meanwhile, instead of a lake that would just swallow the ball, it's an 80 yard weed field that encourages players to go in and look for their balls, slowing down everyone's round.  I have no vendetta against Hills, but 9 at Pipestone is one of the stupidest holes I've ever played.

To be fair, at Pipestone I do like holes 5, 8, 10, and 16.

[Glenn Spencer]

JAL,

Wow, Arthur has got me again, I forgot about number 9, I will put that onhis top 18 for sure, I totally forgot that one. That makes for 4 of the worst holes in America on the front nine of that place- 1,2,6 and 9. 16? Is that the hole with the creek on both sides of the fairway and the trees, kind of like a gate?

[Jordan Wall]

He has some great holes too.

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[Doug Sobieski]

I think the problem, if it really is a problem, with this thread is that after Glenn started his initial premise, he was told that his comments were too critical. Then it seemed that people wanted to jump to Art Hills' defense. Many of those defenders appear to only have played 1 or 2 of his courses. Naturally, as many of us would, Glenn may have felt like he was being attacked for being too frank and needed to support his position (I would have done the same thing). Why is that a problem? I'm sure all of us value the opinions of many on the board, and use it for input when we go play new golf courses. Shouldn't we take the good with the bad? Personally, I've played at least 16 Art Hills golf courses, and I fully agree with Glenn. Should I be afraid to say so? Will people think I have a vendetta? I hope not. I've seen enough of his work, and I'd hope that people would like to hear my opinion. If someone's opinion is that he's underperformed on the good sites he's been given, so be it. Nobody ever said he wasn't a nice guy, nor a good businessman, or that he kicked his dog.

Maybe we should have a list of appropriate adjectives that can be used on the board so that we don't offend people while still voicing our opinion. Almost a code. I'll start with a few.

Nice = Not horrible and the cart didn't die at the farthest point from the clubhouse.
Enjoyable = The beverage cart girl was smoking hot, and got me to forget the cart path intrusion on every hole.
Fun = The holes were so awkward, I was required to contemplate shots that should never be attempted.
Good Businessman = The architect has a good office staff, pays his bills on time, and knows how to produce plans, regardless of whether they translate into good golf holes.
Interesting = Will cause you to scratch your head.

If you go back and re-read the initial post, it doesn't seem all that harmful. It's certainly no worse than anything inflammatory that John K. has ever started. But if you pour gas on a fire, as many people did by telling Glenn to tone down his comments, the fire gets a bit bigger.

[Mike Hendren]

Tim,

You also have to love the lay-up strategies from the front tees.  

When was the last time you chose to drive it 25 yards?  

Mike,

Maybe he learned this from The Good Doctor's original 17th hole at Augusta National Golf Club:



 

[Tim Pitner]

He has some great holes too.

Jordan,

I realize this graphic may not do the hole justice, but what's so great about this hole?  It looks like a forced carry with a 3 wood through some trees and then a short approach.  It doesn't look like driving the green is much of an option--it's probably too long and the strip of rough in front of the green doesn't encourage it.  The green is bunkered on both sides.  I like that you have to think about the length of your tee shot because of the water beyond the fairway, but I don't know that this distinguishes the hole that much.  Like I said, it may be a cool hole in person, but I don't see the brilliance from this graphic.  

[Tim Pitner]

Nice = Not horrible and the cart didn't die at the farthest point from the clubhouse.

That's really funny--the last time I played an Art Hills' course, the cart died at the fartest point from the clubhouse . . . and I very rarely take carts.

[Glenn Spencer]

Tim,

I see what you are saying. What is that strip of rough doing there? I would think the back tees at the 295 plate would make a much better hole potentially. I looks like a nice hole, but I would not mind it as a shorter more gambler-esque hole. I am sure that it is pretty though, Hills only works on the best sites.

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh, you guys are much too kind.  

Not only is that strip of rough ridiculous, not only is the total back yardage of 347 just long enough to take the only gambling play (and strategic interest) out of the question for virtually everyone, but....

what the heck is that bunker doing between the green and the water?    

Saving 100 and less yard approach shots that are half-shanked from a watery grave??  

[Dan_Callahan]

I think the problem, if it really is a problem, with this thread is that after Glenn started his initial premise, he was told that his comments were too critical. Then it seemed that people wanted to jump to Art Hills' defense. Many of those defenders appear to only have played 1 or 2 of his courses.

Doug,

All it takes is experiencing a single course to respond to Glenn's statement: "I see nothing on his resume that would lead me to believe that he is capable of building a great golf course and he didn't. I think the thing that annoys me the most is he just doesn't seem to learn anything. Every course just has 2-8 absolutely stupid golf holes."

That absolute statement is wrong. Newport National does not have "2-8 absolutely stupid golf holes." As the only Hills course I have played, seeing Newport National would lead me to believe that hills IS capable of building a great course. Newport isn't the best I've played, but it is very good and very fun.

I'm not offended by the title of this thread at all, nor would I argue that all of Hills' work is good. It is interesting to read about a variety of impressions of an architects work. In fairness, however, before making a blanket comdemnation of Hills' skill as an architect it is important to review his entire portfolio. Perhaps the majority of his courses are supbar. I don't really know. I do know that based on his work at Newport, he isn't a total imbecile.

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