News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Mark_F

Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« on: April 23, 2006, 06:10:08 AM »
Three of the Sandbelt courses, Commonwealth, Kingston Heath and Woodlands share vaguely similar properties. The first two are reasonably narrow and rectangular in shape, Woodlands being a little bit more square.  All three have some modest undulation only.

Kingston Heath is generally the second ranked course in Australia, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why.   Compared to the other two, its routing is horrible - the holes mostly attack the only significant rise in the land exactly the same way.  It's much flatter than I had thought,and therefore about as dramatic as watching last week's lotto results, and a great many holes are all played the same way - left hand side fairway bunker, green bunkered short right, or short right and back left.

Commonwealth and Woodlands for mine are far superior.  Aside from Royal Melbourne West, the two best multi-hole sequences in Melbourne golf are at those two clubs - 15-18 at Commonwealth, and 2-5 at Woodlands - and there's bags more variety in those four holes each than the entire 18 at The Heath.

Neither Woodlands nor Commonwealth have a hole/green as bad as the 6th at The Heath, either.

For limited sites, Commonwealth and Woodlands do far more with them than KH.



Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2006, 06:27:05 AM »
Mark, I have a friend who agrees with you on KH.

I have a real soft spot for both Commonwealth & Woodlands, & although I believe KH to be an excellent course, there is something about the other two that really connected with me. I have always felt that Commonwealth’s routing is close to the best in the country.

Andrew Thomson

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2006, 07:43:07 AM »
Quote
For limited sites, Commonwealth and Woodlands do far more with them than KH.
limited sites?  did you not notice that KH has room for about 15 holes, it's an outstanding effort on a small site.

Quote
Neither Woodlands nor Commonwealth have a hole/green as bad as the 6th at The Heath, either.
Did you skip the first at CGC?

I like all three courses, but unfortunately have only walked KH, never played it.  Commonwealth certainly has oodles of potential and is a fine course in its own right, let Clayts loose there and it would be outstanding.  The place is a tree farm and there is some unfortunate bunkering around the place.  I find it difficult to comment on KH having only walked it and spectated events there, but based on what I saw I'd consider it a finer course than CGC or Woodlands.  I don't think I'd have it #2 in Australia though, but I'll reserve my judgement till when I've actually teed it up there.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2006, 08:28:24 AM »
KH may well have the best bunkering and tightest green complexes of all the Aussie courses.  Granted, it is on too small and too flat a piece of land - but the interest and variety of approach issues you must contend with makes KH truly great.  After a 4-year project of replacing all the turf on the greens KH is the best conditioned course of them all.  Putting those greens was pure excitement.

Our group was generally disappointed with Commonwealth and for the life of us could not see what Tom saw in the place to include it in his Gorment's Choice.  Then we learned that the whole course had been redone since Tom wrote about it in CG.

JC
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 09:16:35 AM by Jonathan »

James_Livingston

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2006, 08:44:03 AM »
AndrewT, why is KH an outstanding effort and is it really that small a site?

Andrew
In the sandbelt context especially Commonwealth is let down by its lack of a true tempting driveable par 4.  Didn't they used to have one?  :'(

Jonathon
They didn't do the whole course at Commonwealth - there is still plenty of good stuff there - especially once you get to the greens.

Also wondering what you mean by "tightest" green complexes.

Matt_Sullivan

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2006, 10:41:30 AM »
I always wonder about Kingston Heath being small when they manage to have 19 holes and two driving ranges!!

Anyway, I think KH just pips Woodlands, although not by as much as their respective rankings suggest. KH has the ambience, history and conditioning, which I think works strongly in its favour with the rankers. Both courses have a very solid collection of holes, without a huge number of standouts. For example, I think RME has holes better than anything on either KH or WL but perhaps doesn't hang together quite as well.

But the architectural edge should go to KH over WL because of the two KH has the best par 3 (15th) the best short par 4 (3rd) and the best par 5 (14) -- even though WL is strong in all these areas. And KH has a better opener and and a better finish (I even like 16 and 17 -- particularly 16)

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2006, 11:11:36 AM »
It is interesting to me to read so many varied opinions of the courses in Australia. As I have done more and more research for my trip I have no more idea of what courses to see outside of RM West, than I did when I started. Actually I have less of an idea.
   I suppose what makes it so hard is that I haven't golfed with anybody who is expressing these opinions so I just don't know what their tastes are.
   One course I seem to really want to see from what I have gathered is Woodlands, but I've read so many different things about it that I couldn't even pin down why I want to see it. ???
    Perhaps if I figure out what it is you guys value that may help. I like interesting greens first and foremost, next strategic bunkering (line of charm and all that) as opposed to penal bunkering which is everywhere and the only option is to hit a perfect shot, then a routing that takes advantage of the sites' attributes and finally a routing that moves around in relation to the wind.
   
Mark,
   Of the three courses you mention above how would you rank them by the attributes I listed? What are the 1 or 2 main drawbacks of those 3 courses in your opinion?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matt_Sullivan

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2006, 12:06:16 PM »
Ed, the thing about Woodlands is that it is about half the price and has about half the reputation (among the non-afficianados) of its more famous Sandbelt cousins (KH, RM etc) but is actually about 80-90% as good. So it's great value and it usually comes as a pleasant surprise (or at least that's how I felt about). It also has a great collection of short 4s, which is my favourite type of hole

But having said that, it would be maybe 8th or 9th on my list of courses to play in Melbourne/Mornington. So unless you were going to be there for a while it might not make the cut.

FWIW, I would play the following courses ahead of Woodlands (assuming money is not a real object, as I guess is the case if you are coming down from the States to play)

RMW
RME
KH
Victoria
St Andrews Beach
National Moonah
National Old

And then you have the next tier of courses:

The rest of the sandbelt (Metro, Cth, Woodlands, Yarra Yarra)
The best of the rest at Mornington/Bellarine (Portsea, The Dunes, 13th Beach, Barwon, Peninsula, Moona Links (Legends))

Woodlands ranks pretty high up on this second tier list for me, but hard to go wrong with any of the above. Which ones you play would depend on what you could get on, how much you wanted to spend (eg Metro is A$200+, Woodlands A$100 or so, Portsea A$40) , what you like etc

Given your criteria, I would say Portsea might suit you, and Woodlands as well

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2006, 12:16:15 PM »
Mark - Glad to see you have Victoria so highlt regarded.  We thought Vic was wonderful - not too unlike its neighbor across the street - RM.

JC

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2006, 12:24:55 PM »
Matt,
    Thanks for the feedback. Money is always an issue, we are not all rich here in the US, plus I must have some Scot in me from somewhere, because I can pinch a penny with the best of them. :) However, I only have one go at life and if some of the best architecture in the world is in Australia then I am going to go down and see it. Your 80-90% of the architecture for half the price is right up my alley. You are right, Portsea and Woodlands are on my short list.
   At this point RM West two different days, Barnbougle, St Andrews Beach, and NSW are the definites for my trip thus far.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2006, 03:06:08 PM »

   At this point RM West two different days, Barnbougle, St Andrews Beach, and NSW are the definites for my trip thus far.

Ed - Anyone who cares about architecture enough to participate on this site and travel to Australia definitely needs to play Kingston Heath.  There is nothing like it in the states and I find it amazing that a course could be built that feels so roomy on such little land.  You will kick yourself if you do not play there.

To give you perspective - this is one of the holes some consider to be a bad hole - #2:



Incidentally - here is a link to the sandbelt clubs websites:

http://www.thesandbelt.com/


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2006, 04:13:12 PM »
Jason,
  We will most likely play KH, its just not set in stone. Thanks for the link. The prices are Australian dollars? See  you in June. 8)
   So what is allegedly wrong with #2 KH? Dogleg left, green is open in front, is it too easy? Is the drive impossibly tight?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 04:16:18 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2006, 04:36:33 PM »
Ed,

I think the fact that the left hand side bunkers need not be skirted in order to play into the full-length of the green causes some consternation amongst Kingston Heath's detractors. Especially if the pin is back-left, the drive must favour the right hand side mounding and deadly ti-tree. Therefore, I think people feel that the fairway bunker complex is eye-candy and not really important to the strategy of the hole.

TK

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2006, 04:55:31 PM »
Commonwealth and Woodlands for mine are far superior.  Aside from Royal Melbourne West, the two best multi-hole sequences in Melbourne golf are at those two clubs - 15-18 at Commonwealth, and 2-5 at Woodlands - and there's bags more variety in those four holes each than the entire 18 at The Heath.

Neither Woodlands nor Commonwealth have a hole/green as bad as the 6th at The Heath, either.

Mark,

It is easy to fall in love with the ambiance and exceptional bunkering of Kingston Heath (aesthetically the nicest on the Sandbelt), but I do think the golf course has a lot more substance than you give it credit.

In regards to the sixth at Kingston Heath, what makes the hole/green so bad? I enjoyed the anticipation of seeing what lay beyond the ridge that bisects the fairway, and if one keeps the drive tight to the solitary fairway bunker left, the green is strategically opened up for the approach shot. The green reminds me of #5 at Barnbougle Dunes, in that the back half is a mirror image of the front, with the former sloping right and the latter to the left. Certainly provides for some entertaining putts for those that stray too far from the pin. What am I missing?

#10 at Commonwealth is worse than anything at Kingston Heath.

TK
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 04:56:45 PM by Tyler Kearns »

tonyt

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2006, 05:23:28 PM »
The past couple of years has seen the transition made from the Open Championship International Qualifying at Kingston Heath on the Tuesday-Wednesday, followed by the Victorian Open at Woodlands Friday to Sunday.

Having twice now spent four consecutive days at KH followed by same at Woodlands, many of my long term thoughts on these two courses are confirmed. That Woodlands is still one of the most underrated magnificent gems of our nation, and KH deserves none of its bashing it gets for being the best outside of RM.

As for having a nineteenth hole and additional practice area land, most of that has come recently through minor acquisitions, so yes, the 18 hole course is on a frightfully small block. Nobody who disputes this seems to be able to estimate correctly the small number of acres it actually has.

I have been very fortunate that through a rash of use of KH in the late 80s and early 90s for pro tournament golf (when I was a caddy) and frequent opportunities to play it now, it is every bit as majestic and a special place that its ranking affords it, with utterly delightful overall bunkering and green complexes.

James_Livingston

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2006, 07:31:59 PM »
Nobody who disputes this seems to be able to estimate correctly the small number of acres it actually has.
As you are presumably in possession of this crucial information Tony, would you please care to share it with us.  For the purposes of comparison could you also please provide the acreage of its sandbelt peers.  When I calculated it from Google Earth KH was on 16 acres more than Woodlands (not counting the land acquired later at KH).  I'm tipping it is also on a bigger plot than Commonwealth and much more than Yarra Yarra.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2006, 08:05:59 PM »
Could not agree more James_L.  KH is on a small piece of land, but so are Commonwealth and Yarra Yarra.  KH is small when compared to Royal Melbourne, but not when compared to any of the other sandbelt courses.

KH shows how good bunkering and green design can still produce an exceptional course in spite of a less than ideal routing.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 08:14:55 PM by Chris Kane »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2006, 08:25:39 PM »
Mark, whats wrong with the 6th at Kingston Heath?

For my money KH sits high on the Australian list of best courses because it has no obvious "dog" holes, is always in very good condition and maximises / exploits its natural features more fully than some other peer courses (Commonwealth, Yarra Yarra, Vic etc). In terms of tree and truf management KH rates highly. Yes, its a (mostly) flat course but there is still a good collection of holes and the bunkering is mostly exceptional. The club has also resisted the temptation to modify holes, where other such as Commonwealth and Yarra have done so to their detriment.

The more I play Woodlands and KH the closer I think they are in quality. There is really not much between these two courses when subjected to detailed analysis.

Of course if Yarra Yarra and Commonwealth were fully resotred and adopted the KH tree managment policy then they would sit alongside these two course as well. Maybe one day - we can only hope.

Shane.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2006, 08:39:17 PM »
Surely it's too easy to use the throwaway line that KH is 'flat'
Sure it's not hilly but it is not flat either.
There is significant undulation on 1,2,6,7,8,9,14,15,16 and 17.
All of that undulation adds to the play of the holes.
We have been over this a hundred times by why is the routing 'bad'
It has more east- west shots - 1,2,6,10,11,16-  to counter the natural sandbelt tendancy to simply have 15 or 16 holes running north- south (Commonwealth,Yarra Yarra,Huntingdale)
There is variety,great bunkering and it's an excellent example of making a fantastic course out of piece of land that is not great.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2006, 10:32:59 PM »
Keep up the discussion gents, I am getting more useful info by the post.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2006, 12:34:09 AM »
Quote
Keep up the discussion gents, I am getting more useful info by the post.

A good way to look at it is that C'wealth etc... probably have some holes that are as good + more spectacular than KH. But each of these courses have some significant shortcomings that KH does not.

For my money, the only hole on KH that needs a major renovation is 17. If you kept the same routing, you would need to move a good bit of earth to construct a more gradual rise from the tee, making the green more visble from the fairway, and allowing you to add fairway bunkering + more challenge to the green complex. If you hit your drive 275yds+ off the tee now, you have a shortish iron to a green that while blind presents very few problems once you get up there. Apart from that KH is a great course with about 4-5 truly world beating holes. Only RM can outdo that in Melbourne. It's on a much better piece of land closer to the bay, so it's more visually impressive and has the widest range of playing conditions on the Sandbelt.

IMHO RM, KH and National Moonah are the 3 must plays in Victoria.
Next!

Mark_F

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2006, 01:06:19 AM »
Thommo,

KH could hardly be considered that small a site - it was one of the longest courses in Australia when first constructed I believe - 6800 odd yards back in the early 1900s?  A bogey 80?

If it was so tight, then why have three long par fives?  

Why not one like West Sussex or Rye, or two like the vast majority of links courses?

Ed Getka:

I think the main drawback of Kh, is, that despite Mike Clayton's assertions, it is a flat site.  Or at the very least, appears to play very flat.  

I also believe the notion that it has variety is bollocks - the 4th and 13th are basically exactly the same holes, only one is 30 metres longer.  The 1st and 6th are basically the same, as are the 8th and 16th.  

There is a minimal rise in the land in one or two places, and KH uses it exactly the same for all the holes.  

I believe it's poorly routed, because the 15th hole is the only leave alone standout - the 3rd and 10th could have been constructed anywhere.

Woodlands has fantastic variety, on an even less undulating site.  The 2nd is a fantastic short five with a ridge in the driving area like KH, but it does it much better, then you have a great second or 3rd to a narrow green.  

You then have a tight pitch to a 'fat' green, a driveable par four to an inordinately skinny green situated on a wide fairway, and a great slightly uphill medium length par three.  

That's variety.

Commonwealth, too, uses its limited land even better than KH - the left-to-right side sloping fairway on 3, a down then up great par four at 11, a great second shot slightly uphill to a biggish, for Commonwealth, green, surrounded by sand at the 8th.  

Most people bag it because it has too many trees, and because the old 1st, 6th and 7th were better than what is there now.  But 15 through 18 are four of the best holes you will play in Melbourne.


Mark_F

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2006, 01:15:21 AM »
But the architectural edge should go to KH over WL because of the two KH has the best par 3 (15th) the best short par 4 (3rd) and the best par 5 (14) -- even though WL is strong in all these areas. And KH has a better opener and and a better finish (I even like 16 and 17 -- particularly 16)

Matt,

Woodlands' 2nd blows Kingston Heath's 14th into the weeds, and it isn't even the best par five on the property.

KH's 3rd probably shades any of the short fours at Woodlands, but only just, and Woodlands' 4th, 7th and 13th are a lot better than the other short fours at KH.  

What's so good about KH's first?  

KH's finish is pretty ordinary.  At 16, for the second time in 8 holes you face a blind drive over a hill with blind bunkers the same distance out on the right hand side. 17 is modest at best, although Mike's new bunkering gives the hole a lift, but 18 is another one of 10 flat holes, with yet another left hand side fairway bunker and a green bunkered short right and long left again.  

Sorry, already done that.

Mark_F

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2006, 01:31:12 AM »
Commonwealth and Woodlands for mine are far superior.  Aside from Royal Melbourne West, the two best multi-hole sequences in Melbourne golf are at those two clubs - 15-18 at Commonwealth, and 2-5 at Woodlands - and there's bags more variety in those four holes each than the entire 18 at The Heath.

Neither Woodlands nor Commonwealth have a hole/green as bad as the 6th at The Heath, either.

Mark,

It is easy to fall in love with the ambiance and exceptional bunkering of Kingston Heath (aesthetically the nicest on the Sandbelt), but I do think the golf course has a lot more substance than you give it credit.

In regards to the sixth at Kingston Heath, what makes the hole/green so bad? I enjoyed the anticipation of seeing what lay beyond the ridge that bisects the fairway, and if one keeps the drive tight to the solitary fairway bunker left, the green is strategically opened up for the approach shot. The green reminds me of #5 at Barnbougle Dunes, in that the back half is a mirror image of the front, with the former sloping right and the latter to the left. Certainly provides for some entertaining putts for those that stray too far from the pin. What am I missing?
TK

Tyler,

I don't have a problem with blind holes.  I hardly could, given my choice of club. :D

However, at KH 6, if you drive tight left, you do open up the green - unless they have placed the flag just beyond that bloody great chomp someone has taken out of the left hand side.

Then you have no shot near the pin.  If you come up short, the chip is impossible, if you try to run an approach through the swale it wil bleed off, and if you aim  for the right side of the green, there's bunkers tight on that side too.

Understand all of this is conjecture on my part, since I don't possess the ability to play those types of shots. ;D

I don't think the green's design works on a blind driving hole at all.


Mark_F

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2006, 01:42:16 AM »
Mark, whats wrong with the 6th at Kingston Heath?

For my money KH sits high on the Australian list of best courses because it has no obvious "dog" holes, is always in very good condition and maximises / exploits its natural features more fully than some other peer courses (Commonwealth, Yarra Yarra, Vic etc).
Shane.

Shane,

That's where we disagree.  I don't think it has maximised its land at all well.  3, 10 and 15 are exceptional.  The rest are just holes, many of them played the same way. The modest undulation on the property is all utilised in the same manner, especially on 1-6 and 8-16.

I was also disappointed with a lot of the construction.  Whether it is recent or not I have no idea, but the mounds RH side of two are horrific, the ridges on the far LH side of four are even worse, and I can't understand why, on a number of holes, they have built mounds on the side of fairways.

On a site with a number of predominantly flat fairways, eg 2,4,11,12,13,14,18, it looks totally out of place.  Why not build it into the fairways instead, where it would add more day-to-day interest?

After all, most club members aren't as wild as one B.Walshe from the tee. Why should he be the only one to have the excitement of different stances?


Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back