Wuskowhan and Point o' Woods clubs

[Kirk Gill]

I may have an opportunity to play both the Wuskowhan Players Club (Rick Smith design) and Point o' Woods Golf Club (RTJ) courses in Michigan. Any opinions/comments/tips from the group regarding the architecture of these courses would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[S. Huffstutler]

Rick Smith? Think Warren Henderson.

Steve

[Jay Cox]

Point o' Woods is my favorite RTJ course (over Spylass and The Dunes), though it probably isn't worthy of a top 100 ranking.  The RTJ style - shallow, visible bunkering, runway tees, some narrow fairways - works very well with the densely wooded, relatively flat land.  It has a few interesting short par 4s (unlike many other courses of this ilk), a brutally tough set of par 3s, and a couple of bear-like par 4s (highlighted by the great 15th).

[Mike Boehm]

Kirk -

I had the chance to play Wuskowhan last summer and really enjoyed the course.  You will be hard-pressed to find a better-manicured golf course and it is laid out over a gorgeous piece of property.

The course is extremely wide off of the tee, and for the most part, the greens are quite large (30-45 yaards deep).  The greens are very fast and mildly undulating.  If you can keep the putter steady, a good score can be had out there.  

My biggest disappointment with the course was that I felt a lot of holes had similar looks with the crossing marsh hazards.  In fact, there are few holes, if any, that i can think of out there that do not have marsh crossing them at some point.  Also, the par-3 15th seems somewhat squeezed in, but since it connects two of my favorite par 4's on the course, no big deal.

The website for the course http://www.wuskowhan.com has pictures of each hole and will give you a decent idea of what to expect.  Overall, it is one of my favorite courses, and I would bet you'll really enjoy your day out there.

Mike

[Anthony_Nysse]

Steve,
  Rick was actually at Wuskowhan more than one would lead to think. I know some of the developers and it was his first design away from Treetops.
  Point O Woods is a personal favorite. I had a chance to play on a refreshing Friday last April and had most of the course to myself. I walked with my father and brother. I LOVED the course, not  nessesarily cause the architecture was so good, but how the course was built 50 years ago and how RTJ envision technology and building the course with LOOOOOnNG tees (120yds in some cases) , deep bunkers and large greens. The greens are several small greens into one. I could play The Point everyday for the rest of my life and never be board. I thin the #2 is a incredible Par 5, #4 is a neat little par the with a several green, #8 is an outstanding, short par 4 with a hazard along the entie right side, #9 is one of the best par 3's in the Midwest and I could go on and on. The Point is a Top 5 course in Michigan. The conditioning was immaculent and the course is just really solid. I look forward to going back very soon!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Andy Troeger]

At the risk of being very lazy...Tony and I have discussed the Point before, so I'm just going to second all the positive comments that he made. Shivas also makes great points about the history of the Western Am, although from the friends I know that play there and watch the tournament I don't believe they set up the course to play super hard for the tournament. I think they set it up harder last year, and scores were more reasonable.

My personal feeling is that Digest had it right having it in the Top 100...not having it fall off last time.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Andy,
  That's funny! We should try to play there this fall when I'm home....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Andy Troeger]

Andy,
  That's funny! We should try to play there this fall when I'm home....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

I'll second that idea

[Joe Hancock]

...and it is laid out over a gorgeous piece of property.

It is gorgeous, but, as you also mentioned, it led to a routing in which there are 22 forced carries. Every par 5 has a marsh in front of the green, anything from 40 yards out to abutting the green.

I played it once, and the large group I was a part of overwhelmingly said "how great the land was". Apparently most people don't mind forced carries.

Joe

[Doug Sobieski]

...and it is laid out over a gorgeous piece of property.

It is gorgeous, but, as you also mentioned, it led to a routing in which there are 22 forced carries. Every par 5 has a marsh in front of the green, anything from 40 yards out to abutting the green.

I played it once, and the large group I was a part of overwhelmingly said "how great the land was". Apparently most people don't mind forced carries.

Joe

Joe:

I also can't understand the repetitiveness of the forced carries on the par 5's. I wonder if a different site for the clubhouse may have been a better choice. It required all the holes nearby to cross the same wetland. At least they kept the bridge builders employed for quite a while

I wish there was a bit more interest in the greens. Also, the bunkering seems quite "flat" to me (if that makes sense). I suppose that they match the feel of the greens, but they seem more suited to a public-type course where you want to make sure the players are able to get out easily.

Definitely well manicured, and a pleasant place to visit. For me, it doesn't hold my interest long enough to make me want me to play it over and over again. I personally prefer Rick's course over at Oakland University (Scharf Course) in Rochester Hills.

All the best,

Sobe

P.S. I'm thinking about possibly dragging David up your way to see The Mines and a couple other places next month if our schedules permit! I'll be in touch if we get it scheduled.

[PCCraig]

I played in the Western Am there about four years ago. Played two rounds of stroke play and missed the cut.  

I will say that those were some of the fastest greens I have ever played. Four putted the first green and was scared stiff for the rest of the round!

As for the course as a whole, if you're a RTJ fan then it's a must see, however I think Bellerive is a little better. Hole 9 the par-3 at Point O' is one of the best par-3s around.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kirk, I'll be interested in your assessmenet of these two courses.  They are very different from each other.  PO' W is typical RTJ on nice hilly terrain.  Place you tee ball in the right spots to have a good shot to the green.  And bring your long ball.  IMHO PO'W is not as good as its reputation.  It just has a great tournament.  Don't get me wrong it is an excellent course just not top 100 quality.

Wuskowhan isn't top 100 either but I much prefer playing it to the Woods.  It is just fun while being demanding.  There are wetlands and great par threes.  Actually there are good par fours and fives and the last hole is tough as nails.  Have fun.
If you can play Wuskowhan twice. It is worth it.  Lunch on the porch isn't bad either.

[Will E]

The Point is a Top 5 course in Michigan.

The Point is a nice place; Michigan has more than five better than it IMHO.
Some we could argue, but do you really think the Point is a better course than-
Crystal Downs, Kingsley, Indianwood Old, Oakland Hills South, or Franklin Hills?
Or even Black Forest, Lost Dunes, Dunes, Forest Dunes?
 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Shooter,
  The thing that I love so much about POW is that it's fair and true. I cannot say that about all the courses that you listed, nor do I think that all those courses are better, definatley not the last 3 and I have not played Franklin or Indianwood. I might get kicked off for this, but I've never been a big fan of Lost Dunes...Just not something that I've enjoyed, and I've been out there 3 times. Other than the most recent Golf Digest rankings, POW had been a Top 100 course in every ranking and still sits comfortabley around 75 in Golfweek.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Will E]

Tony,
No problem. We'll agree to disagree. No question POW is an excellent exam of all parts of your game. I find it pretty predictable and very repetitive though. If fair and true are criteria for greatness I understand putting in Michigan's top five. By no means am I calling it a bad course, I just prefer many others in this fine state to it.
Would you really rather play POW instead of nine holes twice from different tees at the Dunes?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Shooter,
  I have not had the honor to play The Dunes. GCA member Andy Troeger sent me pics and I'm looking forward to getting there next time that I'm home. I had it set up to play last fall, but with unpredicable Michigan fall weather, I actually cancelled the tee time. (This Carolina boy is now warm blooded and it was below 40 in MI! ) Anyways, it seems like in the last year though I have enjoyed courses that are fair and everything is in front of you. I'd rather have the mistake on my game rather that they golf course. This is part of the reason that I enjoyed East Lake so much-I like to be able to see my penalty and excute the shot wihtout any quirkiness....maybe I'm just at that stage in my game....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Andy Troeger]

Tony,
No problem. We'll agree to disagree. No question POW is an excellent exam of all parts of your game. I find it pretty predictable and very repetitive though. If fair and true are criteria for greatness I understand putting in Michigan's top five. By no means am I calling it a bad course, I just prefer many others in this fine state to it.
Would you really rather play POW instead of nine holes twice from different tees at the Dunes?

Shooter,
I've not played enough of Michigan's finest to know if I'd put POW in the top five, but if given the opportunity to play the Point again or the Dunes again I'd play the Point probably 8 times out of 10. They're very different courses, but I prefer POW. Personally I preferred it to Arcadia Bluffs as well. All three courses are certainly very good, but the POW is well underrated IMO. We'll probably have to agree to disagree as well on the ordering

[Ken Fry]

Andy,

You really need to get away from the Michiana area more often.....  POW 8 out of 10 times??  It's third in Southwest Michigan alone and you know what numbers 1 and 2 are....  It's barely top 10 in the state of Michigan.

Ken

[Andy Troeger]

Ken,
  Whittaker Woods has to be one of them...what's the other??    
  And yes, I'll take POW 8 out of 10 over the Dunes. I do need to get out more though I still need to get to Lost Dunes for a better frame of reference!  For the Point to be #10 in Michigan now to me is a joke, but that's just my opinion.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Ken,
  I'll dive in with Andy and say that I'd play POW 8 out of 10 over Lost Dunes and those two times would be to see some burried elephants in greens. POW is solid, nothing tricked up, pure golf-A course that rewards a great shot and penalizes a poor one. I don't care foe some of the tricked up greens at Lost Dunes...over the top, IMO. I'm guessing that to most POW goes against everything that GCA is about cause it doens't have natural looking bunkers, wild greens and wasn't designed by one of the tree houses' favored sons, but POW was built at a time when RTJ didn't miss-Bellreive, Peachtree, POW and The Dunes Golf and Beach Club-All have been in the Top 100 and have stood up for 40+ years. I'd take POW over Arcadia and would give it thought against The Downs, though part of that might be cause it's so far away.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Ken Fry]

For the Point to be #10 in Michigan now to me is a joke, but that's just my opinion.

Not if you stop to consider the options.  In no particular order, here are a few suggestions:

Dunes Club
Lost Dunes
Crystal Downs
Kingsley Club
Oakland Hills
Greywalls
Arcadia Bluffs
Forest Dunes
Indianwood
Franklin Hills
Orchard Lake
Detroit Golf Club
Brookwood GC  (OK, just kidding)

I haven't even touched any of the resort courses or those around Traverse City/Petosky area (i.e. High Point, Boyne Courses, Tullymore, etc.)  Would you like to include Whittaker Woods here (although it wouldn't fit with the others listed)?

Ken

[Andy Troeger]

Ken,
  Interestingly enough...the only Michigan course I've played that I liked better than the Point isn't even on your list (which does indeed say something about the depth of Michigan golf). I just highly doubt that there's 10 courses on your list or any other that I'd like as well as the Point. I found Tullymore to be comparable, but I'd take the Point over Arcadia or the Dunes.
  I actually typed in Brookwood before remembering how much you LOOOOVE Whittaker Woods.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Ken,
  I'll give you Tullymore-I've always enjoyed it and this that it's VERY underated, better that at least 25 courses on Golfweeks list, but I wouldn't include one course north of Crystal D'owns in the Mitten of Michigan. I think that Forest Dunes is a shot in the dark, nothing the Grand Rapids area, nothing in Lansing, so that really leaves you with Detroit area. Oakland Hills-some love it, some don't. Detroit Golf Club is alright, but just cause it's a Ross, doesn't mean that it's a solid track. Orchard Lake......come on! That's why I love this website site-Opinions!  

Tony Nysse
Asst. SUpt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Ken Fry]

Tony,

I believe Lost Dunes is superior to POW not because Tom Doak posts on this board, but because what the course presents.

I love Point 'O Woods.  There's a lot of history to the facility and I also believe RTJ Sr. gets a bum rap.  Who's to say what's en vogue now won't be looked upon unfavorably in 40 years?  I don't believe it will because it mirrors more of the architecture from the Golden Age, not the Industrial Age of the '60's and '70s.  POW needs serious tree removal beyond what was lost in the storm of 2003.  One of the course's primary defenses has grown to be the narrow playing corridors.  Isn't this what everyone is complaining about at Augusta?  True the bunkers and greenside mounding look manufactured, but I do like them and they represent POW's defense to scoring.  It use to be the course's length along with green complexes provided that defense, not anymore.

Lost Dunes provides options on each hole with large playing corridors.  No one will argue the greens are the course's defense, but why are severly undulating greens looked upon so unfavorably by some?  This is a private course.  If you were a member, think how incredibly different each round can play just by altering pin locations and wind direction.  There are so many possible routes into greens, this is where the fun lies.

POW is a difficult and fun course, but if I'm laying down my hard earned money to play a great course every day, Lost Dunes provides more fun through more options day in and day out.

To each is own but I've found the folks who complain the most about Lost Dunes greens just aren't very good putters.

Ken

[Ken Fry]

Orchard Lake......come on! That's why I love this website site-Opinions!  

Tony Nysse
Asst. SUpt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Colt and Allison underated and slightly unknown course.  Good study in routing.  Nice terrain.

Ken

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