Stone Eagle: A Milestone in Golf Architecture

[cary lichtenstein]

When I play a relatively new course, and not a lot has been written about it, I like to post on GCA for others to read some of my views as I have in the past. Some enjoy reading my stuff. and others in the past have taken exception some of my opinions, so he it goes.

Bette and I had the pleasure of playing Stone Eagle the other day and found it to be quite a remarkable golf course. In some respects, it breaks new ground in golf course architectural design, as I have really not seen anything quite like it.

While it has a little of the Black Mesa rocks and topography, a little of the Old Course in St. Andrews greens, alittle of Sand Hills in a couple of ways, bumpy lumpy fairways, it is set on a mountain side, loaded with uneven lies and wonderfully shapped bunkers.

The fairways are enormous as they are at St. Andrews, the tee shots for the most part are elevated with forced carries, the ground game is in play and isn't, you have to bring your wedges and have a lot of imagination to score well on this course.

Stone Eagle is not difficult as set up now, but if they choice to, it could be as difficult as they want. The greens have significant slopes and a parceled, but they keep them relatively slow for what they are, I think in part to keep the ball on the greens and let you enjoy yourself. Bring them up to a 10 or 11 on the stimp, and I might have had my hands full.

I loved the bunkers...loved them. Big, deep, irregular, A+.

You have to understand that I am not a minialist. I think it works only when you have significant topography and then you have the guts to move the appropriate amount of dirt to enhance it and make it look like you didn't. This is what I think Doak did here.

Can you walk it? Sure if you are Lance Armstrong, hell, he could even walk and carry here, but the carts were even straining up and down the hills. A couple of times we needed heavy duty break pads .

It is a wonderful driving course. I went to a local golf shop and took out a demo Taylor 460 and had them set it up for fades as I normally draw the ball. I read about Mickelson and his 2 drivers and I tried it out here. Tell you what, Michelson is one smart guy. It works. Here I thought he was only a great golfer with a good looking, wife, little did I know he was smart as well.

Fairway shots are a whole new gendre. The uneven lies test your resolve and your ability thru out the day. I had my "A" driving game and my "B" iron game the day I played. Add my inability that day to adjust to the lies as well as I would have liked to, that set up a thoroughly delightful sep of chip, lob, pitch and blast shots.

I hit 3 different wedges out of 4 differnt traps around greens, and I hit about 5 different other clubs around the greens, so I was carrying a bunch of clubs with me from the cart all day.

I shot 77 and Bette shot 83, so the course does reward you and not beat you up. I played the 6355 tees, par 71, so it was like 6555. I think with the elevation, I would step back to the 6800 tees on a 2nd play or try some combo tees.

Stone Eagle is a milestone because it is really different. With all the golf I have played, I kind of think it stand out alone in gendre and that is kind of neat. The bold trapping defines the holes, where to hit your drives and how to shape your shots.

One thing that surprised me was how different the course played from the overhead topo map. From that it looks down the hill and back up the hill, but once you are on the course, you would never know it. The routing is excellent.

Hats off to Doak on this puppy

[ed_getka]

Cary,
  I look forward to seeing at KP V. Obviously you liked the course overall, but I'm not clear on the genre thing you are referring to. Are you saying Tom and his guys brought all the positive attributes of the various courses you mentioned, while eliminating all their weaknesses?

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

Thanks for the review. Looking forward to playing the course.

Going to put you on the spot ...

Given your love of Lakota Canyon Ranch and Black Mesa. How would you rate Stone Eagle in comparison to the others? In simple terms -- rank them in order of your preference from 1,2 and 3 with 1 being the highest.

Any details you can offer to support your view is much appreciated and will be eagerly read and digested.

Thanks ...

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

All three are very different. It is hard to compare when I have played Lakota 25 times, Black Mesa twice and Stone Eagle once. Black Mesa is less forgiving, more risk/reward and has a more varied look.

Bunker work: is SE 1, BM 2, LC 3.

Shot Values: LC 1, BM 2, SE 3

Creativity aorund greens: SE 1, BM 2, LC 3

Eye Candy: LC 1, BM 2, SE 3

Resistance to Scoring: BM 1, LC 2, SE 3

Conditioning: SE 1, LC 2, BM 3

Greens: Pretty darn close

Walk in the Park: Dead Heat

Details to support my comments? Tough for me to do. I see courses thru my eyes and my game, not from a scratch handicap, nor a 15 handicap.

I see how Bette plays these courses and when we are paired with people, I see shots so many wayward shots and sometimes can not believe how many balls a guy can carry in his golf bag.

I saw one guyond day  lose 2 ball on nearly every hole and tell me he loved the day, enjoyed playing us and to call him if we're in the area again. huh???

[A_Clay_Man]

Cary, thanx for the recap. In my opinion it is the best review you have ever submitted. Is it possible those early criticisms were worth it? Especially if you continue to get better at reporting on GCA minutiae.

I remember when Tom cam on here and pronounced that he was going to knock the desert on it's head. After reading your review, I'd say you agree that he did. Do you?

Please, come out and visit me at Ballyneal, You and Bette will be welcome anytime.
Adam

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

A milestone?  Hope this doesn't go straight to Eric's head.

For myself, I'm extremely pleased that you found the course really different, because that's always our goal.  However, I know you haven't played many of our other courses yet, so I hope that judgment will stand after you've seen some more.

What exactly is your definition of "eye candy"?  Just curious because I thought some of the visual work at Stone Eagle was better than anything we've done before.  Are you talking about the scenery/background or the architectural use of it or the shaping or something else?

[Dave_Miller]

I hit 3 different wedges out of 4 differnt traps  
 

Cary, Cary, Cary:
Traps.  No BUNKERS my friend. BUNKERS
Best
Dave

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

Eye candy:Best eye candy for me at Stone Eagle was on the 18th tee.

To me, and maybe eye candy is kind of my term, is when you just start approaching the tee, your eye says to your brain and your mouth opens up and says "holey shit, this is great."

At Banff, the first par 3, it's either #3 or #4, you get to the tee, you have a granite mountain wall in the ball ground, a green 150 feet beneath you, a pond the color of aqua glaciers, and you brain just goes off.

At Lakota Canyon, the canyon walls give you visuals that took millions of years of erosion to create and all you have to do is lay grass between them.

I saw eye candy in something you did at Stone Eagle that I'm not sure I ever did before and that was the creative placement of cart paths. I remember remarking to Bette that it was really the best work I had seen in that regard.

You can create eye candy as you did with the bunkering on 18 to the left of the green. I liked the bunkers so much that after playing the hole, I went down and threw a ball at the back of the top left bunker to try out a long trap shot. That's one of the reasons I said I thought you moved enough dirt to enhance what you had there.

Instead of just scraping out a bunker there, you did I believe 4 bunkers at different levels and shapes but tied them together stlye wise.

At Lakota Canyon the scenery just keeps coming at you, and as you turn the corner, go up the hill, the variety is absoleutly remarkable. At Stone Eagle, there was a sameness to the land, similiar to what was at Sand Hills, so you don' get the "variety" of looks, notwithstanding the creativity of the shaping.

The bunkering of your work at Stone Eagle, which I gave an A+ is eye candy by all means, I remember remarking to Bette several times, stopping and waving my hand kind of like the way you would over a piece of sexy artwork, and remarked how excellent the bunkering was.

What I found myself asking was "what course is this most comparable to?" And when I couldn't answer that question, that's one of the reasons it is a whole new gendre. I am still not sure if my "B" iron game was me or the unevenness of the lies that unsettled me.

I suspect it may have been a bit of both. Not often I miss greens with from 125 yards.

[cary lichtenstein]

Adam:

I'll be at Ballyneal end of July. I'll IM you.

Regarding your question about desert golf. The problem as I see it with desert golf, is it all looks the same... Isolated tees and fairways, water features ad nasueum, so it's just bang the driver, hit the iron...boring.

I played 3 other courses last week in the desert, saw a couple of others, and while they were beautiful in a pleasing way, not in an eye candy way, I was bored to tears. The new Classic where they moved 3 million yards of dirt, every hole was the same, hit the driver between bunkers on both sides of the fairway, etc....

Stone Eagle is not exactly a desert course, it is really a mountain course in the desert like Black Mesa. What everyone seems to be doing in the desert is plant 2 dozen varieties of catcus', 3 million flowers, 14 water pumps, 6 waterfalls and call it golf. If I want to see that, I'll go to the local flower show held in the old fashion hot house.

My only criticism at Stone Eagle, there were 5 palm trees behind the 3rd green that looked out of place (I hate palm trees on golf courses), other than that, nothing looked out of place.

But to answer your question, Stone Eagle was a relief becuase it dared to be different and it worked.

[Jason Topp]

Cary - I appreciate your sentiments.  I played there about a month ago and really enjoyed it.  

In our group because everyone felt a bit disoriented and not sure what to think of the course at first and then liked it better and better as the round went on.  

I cannot imagine anyone walking the course.  

[Kye Goalby]

This 42 year old, out of shape guy, who will never be confused with lance armstrong walked Stone Eagle twice.  The second time  all  members of  our 6-some also walked and thouroughly enjoyed it.

[George Pazin]

Walk in the Park: Dead Heat

Pun intended?

Thanks for the writeup. I'm already looking forward to reading what you have to say about Ballyneal in July.

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

Thanks for the info -- one additional question.

Gun to your head -- if you have 25 rounds to play how do you split them between Lakota, Stone Eagle and Black Mesa?

Please note I am simply asking you how you would decide based on the info you have posted thus far.

[Evan Fleisher]

Cary,

Thanks for the very insightful write-up.  I too will have the pleasure of touring SE during the upcoming KPV and am anxiously awaiting my turn.

Keep up the good work!  

[John Kirk]

This 42 year old, out of shape guy, who will never be confused with lance armstrong walked Stone Eagle twice.  The second time  all  members of  our 6-some also walked and thouroughly enjoyed it.

Thank you, Kye.

Stone Eagle is more walkable than the general sentiment here.  There are three places on the course where a 200-300 yard cart ride can be replaced with a 40-50 yard uphill walk to the next tee.  To continue improving the walk, I have requested they build walking bridges over the ravine on #13 and #14, where the walker must currently follow the cart path around the ravine.

I imagine this will be a low priority project.  The clientele is older, and hardly anybody walks.  I haven't walked the course yet, but I think it's more manageable than reported here, and somebody will owe me $5 when I do it.

I like Stone Eagle a lot.  The course works very well for me from the back tees (6800 yards).  Black Mesa and Lakota Canyon must be very good courses, as Cary considers them to be superior in terms of shot values, resistance to scoring and the new "eye candy" category.  Stone Eagle is very beautiful, and offers great long range views of the Coachella Valley.

I hope everyone enjoys Stone Eagle during King's Putter V.  Unfortunately I won't be there to enjoy it with you.  Sorry, Tommy!

[George Pazin]

In general, there are two separate issues re:walkability to me: 1) long green to tee walks and 2) difficulty of terrain.

The second is of far lesser concern to me. If you can play a golf hole on it, you ought to be able to walk it. If you can't due to physical limitations, no problem, but if you simply don't want a vigorous walk, well, that's not unwalkable in my book.

[Evan Fleisher]

ANYTHING can be walked...




...sorry for that "hardcore walker" comment, I couldn't resist!  

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

What gives ?

Just want to know if you have 25 rounds to play -- how would you dividie up the number of rounds between Lakota, Stone Eagle and Black Mesa. You can base it entirely upon your game as previously mentioned in your overall review.

Thanks ...

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

Sorry, I was on airplanes all day.

I would probably play 12 and 12 at BM and SE so I got to know every inch of the courses plus I think I would have to work on my iron game from uneven lies a bit so I could handle SE better.

After that, I could answer yu better.

I really liked Black Mesa better after the 2nd play, sometimes it goes the other way. I can't speculate beyond that.

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

Just to be sure I read you right. You'd have 12 rounds each at Black Mesa and 12 at Stone Eagle and only one at Lakota Canyon?

I thought you rated Lakota among the ten best courses you have ever played.

Please help my confusion.

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

You confused? Give me a break. I love BM and LC. I know every inch of LC.

What I would like to do is know the same about BM and SE.

I think SE is an easier read re: its nuisances, BM a tougher read.

My fear is that my iron game is not good enough for SE. At LC, I can hit cut, punch, and a bunch of varitiations off flat lies. I enjoy being able to do that. So that when my game is on, I can shoot a really good score, work the ball, and have a great day.

I fear that at SE, a ball above my feet is going left and its going to be hard to control. I can handle the up hill and downhill lies, its the sidehillers that give me pause and that is how SE defends itself since the landing areas are wide.

I think I can shoot good scores at SE, but will have to rely on my wedge to do so, I don't know if I can shoot good scores at Black Mesa as I think that course is more condusive to taking some big numbers. I shot 83/77 there, and I think 77 would be a good score for me there.

I remember one hole at BM where I hit it a bit long and left, a bit, and the ball bounded into the unknown. I remeber I thought BM could use a little more confinement around the greens and a little asphalt on the cart paths.

I had 3 diet pepsi's to wash down the dust

[Will E]

For what it's worth RMD and I had a complete blast playing SE.

There are not many courses that register higher on the fun meter. Typically I'm not a big fan of holes that play uphill, on SE the uphill holes are among the best on the property.

I'll predict a very positive reaction from the Emperor's group, hope you guys don't melt.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Hopefully you'll be emailing me telling me your coming...... (No excuses)

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