Give pro's a free drop from fairway divots

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim:

Now where did I say one should always play it as it lies?

I didn't ever say that.  I think that should definitely be the general principle, that's all.  If we err, we err on the side of playing it as it lies, not giving more free relief.

I'm rather with Jeff on this in that I think the rules work very well as they are written right now.  Oh, I guess in more pernsickety times I tend to want to go back to the original 13 rules.. but such aren't very practical today.

[tlavin]

I'm late to the debate, but to me, this is a no-brainer: this rule should be changed immediately.  There are other stupid rules (stroke and distance for OB, among others) but this is the worst.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I hate to say it, but I see the continuation of searching for fairness someday leading to at least an experiment with this idea, much like hockey and football are experimenting with their rules a bit each year.  (and much like NFL is different in some respects than college in its rules)  The justification would be that these guys have a living to make, I am sure, although the counterarguments are easy to swallow, too - there is a lot of money where one bad break just reduces income, not make you poor.  If one bad shot makes you miss the cut every week, you were borderline anyway.

Now the good part about making special divot rules for pros might be that it would open up thinking in favor of the "special competition ball" which is derided in many quarters as having them play a different game than the rest of us.

[Matt MacIver]

The pros are the last ones that should be given an exemption.  

They're the best ball-strikers on the planet.  They employ full-time caddies that carry sand in order to properly fill divots, not to mention the professional courtesy of doing it right.  

Tiger hit a bad shot -- go practice.  

[Jordan Wall]

Tiger did simply hit a bad shot.  He chunked it.

I like Tiger, but sometimes I question him.  If he is in a bad lie, such as the divot, why try to make a perfect shot instead of playing for a par by going a little long or to the left about 35 feet...?  The two or three shots that water-dunk cost him could be prove to be very vital in the outcome og this tournament...

[mikes1160]

Interesting that there is no mention of bunkers smoothed to perfection after every shot.........would you rather hit out of a divot or a bunker?

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan - I'm bet anything thats EXACTLY what he was trying to do - just get it on the green somewhere safe.  Fact is, the man is human, and this does remain a difficult game.

 

[David Wigler]

What I meant was that Jack's glacial pace of play (And I am a Jack fan) would have become even worse if he was able to tap down spike marks (I envision him vacuuming the green between his ball and the hole

He did the next best thing by foisting perfect conditions and maintenance on us!

Worst part of Jack's (great) legacy is obsession with perfection of the course conditions.

BTW, great to play with you last week, Wiggs.

Bill,

I really enjoyed getting to play with yourself as well.  As the old saying goes, "You got game."  Remember me for your caddie when you qualify for the US Senior Am and do not hit it into any divots during qualifying.

Dave

[peter_p]

From a recent TV commercial. " If you can't handle golf, how can you handle life."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Huck and others who say you should only/always play it as it lies (except that is for the dozens of exceptions the current rules of golf already permit):

What about on the greens?  Should you play it as it lies there too?  Seems to me that means no marking.  No cleaning.  
   

You've brought up a favorite subject of mine.

Reimplementing the [size=8x]STYMIE[/size]

However, in golf you don't always control your ball.
Fellow competitors can demand that your ball be marked.

What has marking your ball got to do with improving your lie ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Funny this issue should come up and you with it, Patrick.

We're going to have a little match on Sunday... four eminent GCAers... well three and me anyway.... and we were contemplating playing a fourball under stymie rules.  The quick research I did seemed to show that can't be done... that is, the rules don't work with four balls in play... any thoughts on this?  Did they ever play fourballs back before the stymie was disallowed?

TH

[tonyt]

Jim,

In the early 90s, Ian Baker-Finch at a players meeting raised the question of divots being treated as GUR.

The other 100ish attendees howled him down in seconds, and the issue was dead without even being discussed or voted on.

The players don't want it, the Tour doesn't want it, and I'm pretty sure most other golf lovers on the planet don't want it.

Heck, lets get over this assumption that ALL tour conditions are pristine. There are fairway lies to be found at almost every tour event and many majors that are equal or worse than a lot of lies in divots. So it is too much of a weak scatter-gun approach to try and isolate one example and exempt it.

[Rick Shefchik]

Interesting that there is no mention of bunkers smoothed to perfection after every shot.........would you rather hit out of a divot or a bunker?

Mike --

This comment deserves consideration within the context of this discussion.

There are advocates here of never raking bunkers: "Bunkers are supposed to be a hazard" is the mantra.

I'm not sure I disagree. I'm leaning more and more towards the Dan King model. It's faster, and it elminates a lot of gray.

I would leave the divot rule as it is -- bad luck, as Tiger said after his round Thursday, but something you have to deal with. Spike marks should almost never occur -- the USGA and PGA should ban metal spikes, for everyone, right now. As for bunkers, I could go either way. Courtesy suggests not leaving a deep footprint you could easily fix before exiting, but courtesy also suggests replacing your divot after your shot, and we all know how often that happens at most courses.

We've all played with infrequent golfers who pick up their ball whenever the spirit moves them -- and, unless you're unfortunate enough to be playing in and event with them, who cares? For those of us on this site, I think we'd enjoy the game more the less we put our hands on the ball, and the more we left the maintenance work to the grounds crew.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I really think that those poor boys should be given a free drop whenever they don't like their lie.  

In fact I think it would be best to pave the golf courses and then put down astro turf.  The lies would be perfect and the maintenance would be much less expensive.  None of theose pesky mowers, just giant vacuums.  

The speed would aslo be great.  Just think of that lovely sight of the ball bounding down that beautiful plastic fairway!

As long as we're at it lets let anyone enter the country who wants to, lets legalize bank robbery(afterall bank robbers need to eat too!)

Life has consequences!  Get over it!  

[Jay Carstens]

Pros on TV that don't replace divots are a poor example to the general golfing public.  They make it appear acceptable to ignore the responsibiltity of care for the course.

[Tony Ristola]

One of the great (unsung) shots in golf was Craig Stadler ripping one out of a divot the year he won the Masters.

It is so great I can't remember exactly what hole, but believe it was the 15th in the final round.

No free drops.

[Jim Nugent]

Trees, mounds, etc. are natural features of the golf course.  The architect (or greens committee or Mother Nature) designed them that way.  You hit there, you pays your money, you takes your chances.

Divots are anything but.  They are man-made artifacts that represent destruction of the course.  Players and caddies are expected to replace them, both as courtesy to other players and to aid in healing the course.  Grounds crews must repair them.  Whether or not the rules recognize it, what else is that besides ground under repair?

Let me take this to the absurd, to make a point that still holds.  Suppose 1000 players take divots in the same 5 foot circle.  They create a semi-crater.  Wouldn't that be declared ground under repair?  Seems to me the logic is the same when you hit into one divot.    

You rake bunkers after hitting out of them, or even touching them.  Why?  To make the course equal as possible for all players.  As "fair," much as some of you say you hate that word and see in it the destruction of both golf course architecture and the game itself.  If you don't rake traps, golfers who play later face a tougher course.  In the last 36 holes of a tournament, that means you are punished for playing better.  

So what is the difference between repairing "divots" in a trap and divots in the fairway?  If anything, sand is more forgiving of its "divots."  You usually play an explosion shot anyway.  

Patrick -- it's not marking the ball on the green that improves your lie.   (Though plenty of golfers cheat there, including I bet some pro's).  It's cleaning it.  Then of course you get to point the Titleist logo along the line you have chosen ... or if you prefer seeing all white, turning the ball that way.  Also, suppose your ball plugs into the green, or stops in someone else's ball mark.  You are allowed to repair the ball mark, so you putt on a smooth surface.  Same with any ball marks that are on your line.  

Bob Huntley -- since you brought up life, golf and fairness, of course they often are not fair.  But we owe our wonderful lives in part to people who gave their blood to make things more fair.   It's cavalier to say "it's unfair, get used to it."  Sit back and take it?  Is that how the people on this board approach life?  No way.  We try to make life better.    

Golf tries to keep things fair, too.  For each player to face the same course.  We can't control weather.  But we sure can control divots in the fairway.  

We can test the idea to see if it gets abused.  If it doesn't work out, drop it.  

Doubt that will ever happen, just like I doubt they ever drop offsides in football.  (They could try that out easily in some friendlies.)  But it is the right thing to do.  IMO.  
     

[Tim Bert]

Is it fair if a guy lands in a fairway divot, drops the ball, and receives a better lie in the fairway than someone that missed a divot and gets no drop?

If this rule is institued, then I think you would need to give everyone the option to drop every shot that lands in the fairway, regardless of lie, to make it "fair."

[Mike_Clayton]

Tony,

It was the 17th and it was a truly horrible lie and he made a bogey.


As Fred Couples told Greg Norman at a players meeting years ago when he suggested it  you've got your name on your bag - just put it back in your stance and punch it out"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Let me take this to the absurd, to make a point that still holds.  

Suppose 1000 players take divots in the same 5 foot circle.  They create a semi-crater.  Wouldn't that be declared ground under repair?  Seems to me the logic is the same when you hit into one divot.

That's not absurd, it's impossible.
So the logic that leads you to your conclusion is flawed.
Besides, any prudent green chairman would throw sand into the crater and solve the problem the easy way.    

You rake bunkers after hitting out of them, or even touching them.  

Not at Friar's Head or Pine Valley

Why?  To make the course equal as possible for all players.  As "fair," much as some of you say you hate that word and see in it the destruction of both golf course architecture and the game itself.  If you don't rake traps, golfers who play later face a tougher course.  In the last 36 holes of a tournament, that means you are punished for playing better.  

That's the stroke play mentality.
And, tee times are usually reversed, those who play early one day, play late the next.  It evens out over the long run.

P.S.  Maybe that's how bunkers should play, as hazards, to be avoided at all costs.

So what is the difference between repairing "divots" in a trap and divots in the fairway?  If anything, sand is more forgiving of its "divots."  You usually play an explosion shot anyway.  

There is NO rule requiring the raking of a bunker.
 
Patrick -- it's not marking the ball on the green that improves your lie.   (Though plenty of golfers cheat there, including I bet some pro's).  It's cleaning it.  Then of course you get to point the Titleist logo along the line you have chosen ... or if you prefer seeing all white, turning the ball that way.  

If your ball obstructs or assist another what would you do ?

Also, suppose your ball plugs into the green, or stops in someone else's ball mark.  

Think for a second about the condition of a wet green where approach shots plugged and you couldn't mark your ball or repair the ball mark.  L-wedges would render the green unputtable within a few hours, and the green would take weeks if not months to recover.

The rules have evolved over centuries and they've evolved quite well.

What you're missing in this is the following.
What constitutes a divot ?  Must it be fresh ? A day old, a week old, a month old ?   Is it an old divot or a unique fairway depression.

You mentioned cheaters and their work on the green.
Do you think your rule would create an abundance of situations where the rules would be stretched and cheating rampant ?

You are allowed to repair the ball mark, so you putt on a smooth surface.  Same with any ball marks that are on your line.  

Reread the definition of a "putting green"
It is specially prepared for a specific purpose, and that's why repairing that surface is integral to the game.

I don't believe that the rules of golf even define or differentiate "fairways", nor is their a rule that requires the replacement of divots.

Read Rule 13 and 13.2.
I think that will help clarify an age old principle of golf, that a player shall NOT improve his lie.

Bob Huntley -- since you brought up life, golf and fairness, of course they often are not fair.  But we owe our wonderful lives in part to people who gave their blood to make things more fair.  

Jim, we didn't fight World Wars so that someone would get relief from a divot.

It's cavalier to say "it's unfair, get used to it."  

NO, it's not.
Stop whining.
Fairness isn't an ultimate virtue of the game.
The desire to achieve "fairness" is what has ruined most architectural features and disfigured innumerable golf courses

Sit back and take it?  Is that how the people on this board approach life?

This is a game, a wonderful game, and you want to undermine the foundation of the game, vis a vis, "fairness"
Fairness in play was never a guiding principle of the game.

No way.  We try to make life better.
Relief from divots won't make it better.
It will lead to cheating and controversy.

Review the history of the game and see where people played from.  Ruts made by wagon wheels and all sorts of difficult conditions.

Stop whining, accept what golf and life bring your way and deal with it like a man by doing your best, not whining that it's unfair.

What's unfair is a four year old  with terminal cancer.
A pregnant mother killed by a drunk driver or freak accident.
Three kids left without a father when a policeman or fireman dies in the line of duty.  Those are unfair.

A ball in a divot tests your will and your skill at that moment.

If a balls in a divot, deal with it, play it, and stop whining, it's not that big a deal.    

Golf tries to keep things fair, too.  For each player to face the same course.  We can't control weather.

Again, you're a victim of the stroke play mentality.

Golf doesn't try to keep things fair.
Golf presents a field of play that's relatively uniform, not fair.
Conditions a 7:00 am differ radically from conditions at 2:00 pm.

But we sure can control divots in the fairway.  

NO, you can't.
It becomes far too subjective and thus unfair advantages are taken, it becomes, in your words, LESS "fair"

We can test the idea to see if it gets abused.  If it doesn't work out, drop it.  

Didn't you complain about cheaters marking their ball on the green ?

There's no need to test it, the game is fine as it is.

Doubt that will ever happen, just like I doubt they ever drop offsides in football.  (They could try that out easily in some friendlies.)  But it is the right thing to do.  IMO.  

Your opinion is not shared by those who have formulated the rules over the last few centuries.

It's the WRONG thing to do, it sends golf further down the road of ruination in the quest for "fairness".
     

Sean Arble,

A divot is NOT GUR.

Where did you come up with the inclusion of a divot as GUR ?[/color]

[Bill Weber]

Maybe I've overlooked the argument that Tiger could have taken an unplayable drop and suffered a one stroke penalty rather than the two incurred (the chunk plus the drop from water). As smart as Tiger is he must have considered it if his lie was as bad as indicated. Poor decision, poor swing.

[Jim Nugent]

Let me take this to the absurd, to make a point that still holds.  

Suppose 1000 players take divots in the same 5 foot circle.  They create a semi-crater.  Wouldn't that be declared ground under repair?  Seems to me the logic is the same when you hit into one divot.

That's not absurd, it's impossible.
So the logic that leads you to your conclusion is flawed.
Besides, any prudent green chairman would throw sand into the crater and solve the problem the easy way.    

You rake bunkers after hitting out of them, or even touching them.  

Not at Friar's Head or Pine Valley

Why?  To make the course equal as possible for all players.  As "fair," much as some of you say you hate that word and see in it the destruction of both golf course architecture and the game itself.  If you don't rake traps, golfers who play later face a tougher course.  In the last 36 holes of a tournament, that means you are punished for playing better.  

That's the stroke play mentality.
And, tee times are usually reversed, those who play early one day, play late the next.  It evens out over the long run.

P.S.  Maybe that's how bunkers should play, as hazards, to be avoided at all costs.

So what is the difference between repairing "divots" in a trap and divots in the fairway?  If anything, sand is more forgiving of its "divots."  You usually play an explosion shot anyway.  

There is NO rule requiring the raking of a bunker.
 
Patrick -- it's not marking the ball on the green that improves your lie.   (Though plenty of golfers cheat there, including I bet some pro's).  It's cleaning it.  Then of course you get to point the Titleist logo along the line you have chosen ... or if you prefer seeing all white, turning the ball that way.  

If your ball obstructs or assist another what would you do ?

Also, suppose your ball plugs into the green, or stops in someone else's ball mark.  

Think for a second about the condition of a wet green where approach shots plugged and you couldn't mark your ball or repair the ball mark.  L-wedges would render the green unputtable within a few hours, and the green would take weeks if not months to recover.

The rules have evolved over centuries and they've evolved quite well.

What you're missing in this is the following.
What constitutes a divot ?  Must it be fresh ? A day old, a week old, a month old ?   Is it an old divot or a unique fairway depression.

You mentioned cheaters and their work on the green.
Do you think your rule would create an abundance of situations where the rules would be stretched and cheating rampant ?

You are allowed to repair the ball mark, so you putt on a smooth surface.  Same with any ball marks that are on your line.  

Reread the definition of a "putting green"
It is specially prepared for a specific purpose, and that's why repairing that surface is integral to the game.

I don't believe that the rules of golf even define or differentiate "fairways", nor is their a rule that requires the replacement of divots.

Read Rule 13 and 13.2.
I think that will help clarify an age old principle of golf, that a player shall NOT improve his lie.

Bob Huntley -- since you brought up life, golf and fairness, of course they often are not fair.  But we owe our wonderful lives in part to people who gave their blood to make things more fair.  

Jim, we didn't fight World Wars so that someone would get relief from a divot.

It's cavalier to say "it's unfair, get used to it."  

NO, it's not.
Stop whining.
Fairness isn't an ultimate virtue of the game.
The desire to achieve "fairness" is what has ruined most architectural features and disfigured innumerable golf courses

Sit back and take it?  Is that how the people on this board approach life?

This is a game, a wonderful game, and you want to undermine the foundation of the game, vis a vis, "fairness"
Fairness in play was never a guiding principle of the game.

No way.  We try to make life better.
Relief from divots won't make it better.
It will lead to cheating and controversy.

Review the history of the game and see where people played from.  Ruts made by wagon wheels and all sorts of difficult conditions.

Stop whining, accept what golf and life bring your way and deal with it like a man by doing your best, not whining that it's unfair.

What's unfair is a four year old  with terminal cancer.
A pregnant mother killed by a drunk driver or freak accident.
Three kids left without a father when a policeman or fireman dies in the line of duty.  Those are unfair.

A ball in a divot tests your will and your skill at that moment.

If a balls in a divot, deal with it, play it, and stop whining, it's not that big a deal.    

Golf tries to keep things fair, too.  For each player to face the same course.  We can't control weather.

Again, you're a victim of the stroke play mentality.

Golf doesn't try to keep things fair.
Golf presents a field of play that's relatively uniform, not fair.
Conditions a 7:00 am differ radically from conditions at 2:00 pm.

But we sure can control divots in the fairway.  

NO, you can't.
It becomes far too subjective and thus unfair advantages are taken, it becomes, in your words, LESS "fair"

We can test the idea to see if it gets abused.  If it doesn't work out, drop it.  

Didn't you complain about cheaters marking their ball on the green ?

There's no need to test it, the game is fine as it is.

Doubt that will ever happen, just like I doubt they ever drop offsides in football.  (They could try that out easily in some friendlies.)  But it is the right thing to do.  IMO.  

Your opinion is not shared by those who have formulated the rules over the last few centuries.

     

Those who formulate the rules over centuries never do want change.  They normally represent anti-change.  That's what the status quo is.  

The logic about the crater is not flawed.  You may be too literal-minded to understand it, though.  

Your PV and Friar's Head examples are flawed, though.  They are two courses, compared to thousands that DO rake.  If any major pro tournament ever comes to PV or Friar's Head -- odds are somewhere between unlikely and zero -- I predict they will rake the bunkers.  Or they won't play there.  

Elite golf is almost entirely medal play.  And the last two rounds of medal play, the best go last.  Under the no-rake scheme they would be penalized for playing better.  

No rule requiring you rake a bunker?  No rule forbidding it, either.  Ironic that you can hit into a hazard and get a better lie than you can in the fairway.  

If they ever adopt this rule -- they won't -- a player would need approval from an official.  What is a divot?  The official uses his judgement, as he does in other situations that come up on the course.  

You don't know it will cause cheating.  You don't know how it will work out.  Only way to know that is try it.  You may be right.  You may be wrong.  That's the value of testing.  It's a fundamental principle of science, and how we advance knowledge.  Not by self-proclaimed experts determining what is best for the rest of us.    

Golf is trivial next to big issues/concerns of life.  Obviously.  That is why we should not try to make some things about it more fair?  Your basic non sequitur.  

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Those who formulate the rules over centuries never do want change.  They normally represent anti-change.  That's what the status quo is.

That's not true, the rules have changed over time, but, not the principle that you can't improve your lie.

The logic about the crater is not flawed.  You may be too literal-minded to understand it, though.  

Please, by your own admission it was an absurd exercise.

Your PV and Friar's Head examples are flawed, though.  They are two courses, compared to thousands that DO rake.  If any major pro tournament ever comes to PV or Friar's Head -- odds are somewhere between unlikely and zero -- I predict they will rake the bunkers.  Or they won't play there.  

Well, you're wrong again.
I major pro tournament did come there within the last few years and, they played the course as they found it, not like whiners who wanted concessions.

Elite golf is almost entirely medal play.  And the last two rounds of medal play, the best go last.  Under the no-rake scheme they would be penalized for playing better.  

If they played better they wouldn't be in bunkers.

How many, of all the rounds of golf that are played in the U.S., are played during the last two rounds of tournaments, and by how many golfers ?   Less then one one hundreth of one percent.  And, you want to change the rules for the other 99.9+ percent ?  ?  ?

No rule requiring you rake a bunker?  No rule forbidding it, either.  Ironic that you can hit into a hazard and get a better lie than you can in the fairway.

I'll take a fairway, including a lie in a divot, to being in a hazard.

What percentage of the time does one get a worse lie in a fairway versus a hazard ?

And, so what.
Play it like a man, stop whining.  

If they ever adopt this rule -- they won't -- a player would need approval from an official.  

An official  ?   ?
Now we'll work on 6 hour rounds.
Or have to find an official to walk with every group.
Official or no official it's still subjective.
How old is the divot ?  How inferior is the lie ?
 

What is a divot?  The official uses his judgement, as he does in other situations that come up on the course.  

Give me some examples where officials use their judgement ?

How would you define what entitles one to relief ?

You don't know it will cause cheating.  

Of course I do.
You even cited golfers who mark their ball who cheat.
Do you think the same golfers given your option won't take advantage of it and cheat ?  Or, do they just cheat on the green ?

You don't know how it will work out.

Sure I do.
It won't work out, administratively, ethically and hourly.
What's the extent of your experience officiating at tournaments ?

Only way to know that is try it.  You may be right.  You may be wrong.  That's the value of testing.  It's a fundamental principle of science, and how we advance knowledge.  Not by self-proclaimed experts determining what is best for the rest of us.

You prefer to whine and advance the interests of the "me" generation.

I'm familiar with the rules and how they evolved over the centuries to benefit golf and golfers   I don't whine that something isn't "fair".

Not improving your lie is a fundamental of the game, deal with it.

With respect to your theories on testing as the only way to come to valid conclusions, do us a favor, test something for us.
Put a loaded pistol to your knee cap, then pull the triggger.
Let us know if you have difficulty walking within 15 seconds after the trigger pull.

I'm going to pass on that test.
I think there are prudent reasons to reach my conclusion.
And, I feel the same way with respect to the relief from a divot nonsense that you're proposing.  

Golf is trivial next to big issues/concerns of life.  Obviously.  That is why we should not try to make some things about it more fair?  

Why, the game is fine just the way it is.
And, the desire to make it more "fair" is what has disfigured an inordinate amount of golf courses.
Accept your fate, test your will and skill and play the ball as it lies.
 

[TEPaul]

There are some rules changes the Rulesmakers may consider in the future but fortunately this issue will never be one of them.

[A_Clay_Man]

Most of the great responses have been made. Over-coming adversity is paramount. The satisfaction of knuckleing down and adapting to the situation is a bonus and should be appreciated. Because the alternative is a mundain, repeated action that leads to the dullness that almost became GCA.

One aspect is key. That is, leaving the course in better condition than you find it. If more people would adhere to this principle, there'd be less divots to find, in or out of a bunker.

Karma is a bitch. Treat people, and courses better and maybe the next time you find yourself in a divot, in the middle of the fairway, you will extricate it with the ease only found when when someone is at peace with themselves and totally focused on the task at hand.

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