Give pro's a free drop from fairway divots

[Jeff Fortson]

Since when did hitting a shot in the fairway guarantee a person a perfect lie?  The goal in golf isn't about hitting fairways (although it generally helps).  Let me quote the first[/i] rule of golf.....


1-1 General
The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.


I don't see where is mentions playing strokes into the fairway before playing it into the hole.  So, if hitting the ball into the fairway isn't the goal of the game then why should one receive any special treatment for finding a bad lie?


Jeff F.

[Tom Huckaby]

Understand I am NOT in any way advocating a rules change to allow relief from divots.  And Patrick is right - golf is not meant to be "fair."

I'm just curious how far people take this "play it as it lies" mentality.

We've had this discussion many times before - Dan King plays a great game where there is no such thing as relief from anything - it's all match play, play it as it lies no matter what, lose a ball, concede the hole.

This can't be what you're getting at, is it Jeff?

So if as I can assume you believe relief ought to be granted for certain things like casual water and ground under repair... well... is it not also logical that a divot - or at least a sand-filled one - could be seen as ground under repair?

It's for this reason I'm not prepared to say Jim's crazy for suggesting relief here.  I personally do think it's taking the concept of relief TOO FAR, but at least it does have logical merit.

What say the others here?  Do you want to play Dan King's game?  It is fun, let me tell you.  It just does need some obvious modifications for stroke play.  And once you start modifying, well... the trick is where to stop.  Methinks the USGA and R&A have a good handle on things - and they do continually tweak.

TH

[Kirk Gill]

On 18 Els hit a drive well right which bounced off a tree back into the fairway. It is totally unfair that he was not duly punished for that poor stroke.

[Patrick_Mucci]

[size=4x]
We can't make golf competely fair.  But when we can make it more fair, we should.[/size]

This thinking, the concept of making golf "more fair", is alone, the single most dangerous and powerful force responsible for the disfiguring of the great majority of our golf courses.

It's the worst possible perspective in which to view and understand golf.

What must be avoided is the urge to make everything fair, [size=4x]

FAIRNESS IS NOT THE ULTIMATE VIRTUE OF THE GAME.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The spirit of the SPORT revolves around luck both good and bad.

Play the ball as it lies. Anything else is cheating and therefore not Golf. That is unless some of you that would favor such a indecency as cheating like to consider yourself a golfer. In my opinion, your not.

Once again, PLAY IT AS IT LIES!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Patrick,
I for one couldn't agree more!

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy - of course that's the general principle.

But read my post - how far does one take this?

Just curious.  It's been a very interesting discussion topic in the past.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, It's simply not in the truest spirit and essence of the Sport. I don't even consider it a topic.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy - yes, as it pertains specifically to taking relief from divots, understood.

But again, how far do you take "play it as it lies"?

Is there no such thing as casual water?  Ground under repair?  

Just curious - I find people's takes on this fascinating.

TH

[redanman]

What I meant was that Jack's glacial pace of play (And I am a Jack fan) would have become even worse if he was able to tap down spike marks (I envision him vacuuming the green between his ball and the hole

He did the next best thing by foisting perfect conditions and maintenance on us!

Worst part of Jack's (great) legacy is obsession with perfection of the course conditions.

BTW, great to play with you last week, Wiggs.


On another note:

On 18 Els hit a drive well right which bounced off a tree back into the fairway. It is totally unfair that he was not duly punished for that poor stroke.

I heard that at his press conference that Els wished that he had been allowed to throw it back into the rough!  

[archie_struthers]

Actually this thread got me thinking more and more about architecture and how fairness enters into the equation.

If i'm ever wealthy enough to build another course, or if some nut let's me do it for him, I'd probably really "twist it" and have some features I might have considered wacky before.

Oh well, one can dream!!! lol

Stiil don't like dead elephants in greens

[Jeff Fortson]

Understand I am NOT in any way advocating a rules change to allow relief from divots.  And Patrick is right - golf is not meant to be "fair."

I'm just curious how far people take this "play it as it lies" mentality.

We've had this discussion many times before - Dan King plays a great game where there is no such thing as relief from anything - it's all match play, play it as it lies no matter what, lose a ball, concede the hole.

This can't be what you're getting at, is it Jeff?

So if as I can assume you believe relief ought to be granted for certain things like casual water and ground under repair... well... is it not also logical that a divot - or at least a sand-filled one - could be seen as ground under repair?

It's for this reason I'm not prepared to say Jim's crazy for suggesting relief here.  I personally do think it's taking the concept of relief TOO FAR, but at least it does have logical merit.

What say the others here?  Do you want to play Dan King's game?  It is fun, let me tell you.  It just does need some obvious modifications for stroke play.  And once you start modifying, well... the trick is where to stop.  Methinks the USGA and R&A have a good handle on things - and they do continually tweak.

TH

Tom and others considering this idea,

The Rules of Golf address relief from cart paths, GUR, casual water, etc.  Nowhere are divots mentioned.  I know you know this, I am simply setting my point up.  Nowehere do the Rules address "fairways" or the importance of hitting said "fairways".  Taking relief from cart paths, GUR, or casual water can be taken anywhere through the green as long as it's legitimate.  

I see two problems with the line of thinking that divots should be given "relief status"...  

First, if you are going to allow relief from divots you would have to give relief from them everywhere.  Why should you only get relief from them in the fairway?  Casual water and sprinkler heads, etc. don't offer relief in the fairway only.  What would exempt divots from this same line of thinking?

Second, I think this would start a slide down a slippery slope of trying to make everything fair.  I agree hitting a drive down the middle of the fairway into a divot stinks.  It's bad luck.  But what about the times your ball snap hooks into the trees and bounces back out into the fairway?  Should you have to put it back in the trees?  Or what about when your ball hits a cart path and goes further down the hole or in a bad luck case goes OB?  Should you be allowed to bring it back from OB or be forced to bring the ball backward when you benefit from the big hop you got?  Maybe if my ball picks up mud or grass clippings but it's in the fairway I should be allowed to clean it and place it on a perfect lie, for I did hit it in the fairway.  

Here is the ultimate situation...

Say you snap hook a ball that is diving left into the trees and maybe going OB.  Well, miraculously your ball hits a branch and kicks straight right into the fairway.  What luck you think!  Except when you get to the ball it is in a massive divot.  Should you be able to take relief even though you are lucky to be in the fairway in the first place?

Think about it.


Jeff F.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tommy - yes, as it pertains specifically to taking relief from divots, understood.

But again, how far do you take "play it as it lies"?

Is there no such thing as casual water?  Ground under repair?  

Just curious - I find people's takes on this fascinating.

TH

Tom, Our greatest gift is the ability to overcome fear and at least attempt the great shots of our lifetime. Golf requires that we accept 'challenge' as a personal quest to better ourselves on any given day. Some days we succeed and other days we don't. Frankly I don't consider anyone a golfer who doesn't want or accept that challenge and shies away from even attempting the shot or accepting the risk at hand.

This is where great and memorable shots come from.

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick,
I for one couldn't agree more!

You already don't play it as it lies.  

You mark the ball on the green.  You clean it.  

When officials deem courses are too wet, you get to pick up your ball in the fairway (everywhere?), clean it and place it.

When you hit into "ground under repair", you get a drop.

You get drops from all sorts of other constructions, man-made or otherwise.  Ernie Els' free drop in the early 1990's helped him win his first U.S. Open.  Arnold Palmer's free drop in 1958 helped him win the Masters.  

The reactions of horror surprise me.  The accusations of cheating are false and uncalled for.    

[Tom Huckaby]

Jeff:

Now wait a second - you completely glossed over the first part of my post. I am NOT advocating this as a rules change, nor I am even really considering it.  I see far more problems with it, even beyond the principles that golf isn't meant to be fair and we generally should play it as it lies.

As you hopefully read, I am trying to get at the overall issue, not this specific one.

I also speculated pretty much exactly what you just did - that is, how does one define it?  Impossible as I see it.

So don't lump me in with those "considering" this idea, if that means those who think it ought to happen!  All I see is a certain logic whereby sand-filled divots could be seen as ground under repair.  I'm not at all advocating that they should be, or could be.

So if you wouldn't mind, try to answer the actual question I posed.  Forget this divot issue.

How far do you take these PRINCIPLES[/i]?  Is there to be no such thing as ground under repair?  Casual water?

If you don't allow those, that's cool.  I'm not against that either.  But if you do, well... you are legislating fairness, to some extent.

See how this isn't quite as simple and easy as it seems?

TH

[Jeff Fortson]

The reactions of horror surprise me.  The accusations of cheating are false and uncalled for.    

I want to make sure that everyone is clear that I never said anyone was a cheater.

With that said, I think a line needs to be drawn somewhere and I think the current line in the Rules is sufficiently fair to both the player and the game.  I say keep the status quo.


Jeff F.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy - yes, as it pertains specifically to taking relief from divots, understood.

But again, how far do you take "play it as it lies"?

Is there no such thing as casual water?  Ground under repair?  

Just curious - I find people's takes on this fascinating.

TH

Tom, Our greatest gift is the ability to overcome fear and at least attempt the great shots of our lifetime. Golf requires that we accept 'challenge' as a personal quest to better ourselves on any given day. Some days we succeed and other days we don't. Frankly I don't consider anyone a golfer who doesn't want or accept that challenge and shies away from even attempting the shot or accepting the risk at hand.

This is where great and memorable shots come from.

Tommy - absolutely understood, and agreed.

But you didn't answer the questions.

Do you think there ought to be relief from ground under repair, casual water, any other situations currently established under the rules?

Or do you believe one should ALWAYS play it as it lies?  Do you allow for penalty strokes?

The original 13 rules cover this pretty darn well.  If I had my way, we'd just use those.  But even that gets problematic in these days of asphalt and so many other things they couldn't have foreseen in 1744....

TH

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff:

Now wait a second - you completely glossed over the first part of my post. I am NOT advocating this as a rules change, nor I am even really considering it.  I see far more problems with it, even beyond the principles that golf isn't meant to be fair and we generally should play it as it lies.

As you hopefully read, I am trying to get at the overall issue, not this specific one.

I also speculated pretty much exactly what you just did - that is, how does one define it?  Impossible as I see it.

So don't lump me in with those "considering" this idea, if that means those who think it ought to happen!  All I see is a certain logic whereby sand-filled divots could be seen as ground under repair.  I'm not at all advocating that they should be, or could be.

So if you wouldn't mind, try to answer the actual question I posed.  Forget this divot issue.

How far do you take these PRINCIPLES[/i]?  Is there to be no such thing as ground under repair?  Casual water?

If you don't allow those, that's cool.  I'm not against that either.  But if you do, well... you are legislating fairness, to some extent.

See how this isn't quite as simple and easy as it seems?

TH

Tom,

Sorry I wasn't trying to lump you with the "relief" crowd I was trying to adress you and the "relief" crowd.  Sorry if you took that wrong.

In reference to where I feel the line should be drawn...  Keep it where it is at.  It's plenty fair to all corncerned now, IMHO.


Jeff F.

[Tom Huckaby]

The reactions of horror surprise me.  The accusations of cheating are false and uncalled for.    

I want to make sure that everyone is clear that I never said anyone was a cheater.

With that said, I think a line needs to be drawn somewhere and I think the current line in the Rules is sufficiently fair to both the player and the game.  I say keep the status quo.


Jeff F.

Cool.  Agreed.  So you do believe relief should be granted from GUR, casual water, etc.

Ahhhh... but here's the rub... ANG AGAIN I'M NOT SAYING WE CHANGE THE RULES, THIS IS JUST FOR DISCUSSION....

What's the real difference between a patch of ground being re-seeded or something - typically and correctly marked as GUR - and a sandy-filled divot?

Thus Jim's take does have logical merit.  A rules change just can't be made for it, for exactly the reasons you stated, and I stated before.

The principles surrounding this are fascinating to me... how and when should relief be given, if at all?
TH

[Jeff Fortson]

The reactions of horror surprise me.  The accusations of cheating are false and uncalled for.    

I want to make sure that everyone is clear that I never said anyone was a cheater.

With that said, I think a line needs to be drawn somewhere and I think the current line in the Rules is sufficiently fair to both the player and the game.  I say keep the status quo.


Jeff F.

Cool.  Agreed.  So you do believe relief should be granted from GUR, casual water, etc.

Ahhhh... but here's the rub... ANG AGAIN I'M NOT SAYING WE CHANGE THE RULES, THIS IS JUST FOR DISCUSSION....

What's the real difference between a patch of ground being re-seeded or something - typically and correctly marked as GUR - and a sandy-filled divot?

Thus Jim's take does have logical merit.  A rules change just can't be made for it, for exactly the reasons you stated, and I stated before.

The principles surrounding this are fascinating to me... how and when should relief be given, if at all?
TH

Tom,

Let's take a look at how the USGA defines GUR...


Ground Under Repair
“ground under repair’’ is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative. It includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so marked.

All ground and any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing within the ground under repair is part of the ground under repair. The margin of ground under repair extends vertically downwards, but not upwards. Stakes and lines defining ground under repair are in such ground. Such stakes are obstructions. A ball is in ground under repair when it lies in or any part of it touches the ground under repair.

Note 1: Grass cuttings and other material left on the course that have been abandoned and are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless so marked.

Note 2: The Committee may make a Local Rule prohibiting play from ground under repair or an environmentally-sensitive area defined as ground under repair.



It seems to me that the USGA doesn't mention divots as being GUR.  I guess a "Committee" could mark every divot or groupings of divots to make them GUR but that seems to be the only way.  

IMO, I think GUR is generally reserved for large areas of damage to a course that need to be addressed or are in the process of being addressed.  Where does a divot start?  Where does it end?  What about divots in the rough?  What about a ball mark in the fairway?  On the fringe?  Should you be able to get relief or repair those?  I think the Rules do a good job of handling this issue as it is now.


Jeff F.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jeff:

PERFECT!  I concur completely - that's why I fully believe there's no way to make this a real rules change.

I speculated earlier that one could have rules guys scurrying about painting white lines around every sand-filled divot - that's the only way really to make this work - but that's rather impractical, no?

Thus we are surely better off with the status quo.  Rub of the green, play it as it lies.

NOW... on to the bigger issues... should we all play Dan King's game, some modified version thereof, or use the rules as they are now?

TH

[JohnV]

Jim,

Do you live in Ohio?  If not, perhaps you might want to move there.  You could probably convince the Ohio Golf Association to allow this. After all they did allow the fixing of spike marks on the green at one time.

As some of the old time rules officials I know say, "Hard luck has to start somewhere."

[Jim Nugent]

Huck and others who say you should only/always play it as it lies (except that is for the dozens of exceptions the current rules of golf already permit):

What about on the greens?  Should you play it as it lies there too?  Seems to me that means no marking.  No cleaning.  





   

[Mike Benham]

1.  A divot in rye turf is different than a divot in bermuda ...

2.  What if a divot is filled with sand ...

3.  What if a divot is repaired with the turf that was removed ...

4.  What if #3 and #4 are both done poorly of have-a$$ed ...

5.  What if #3 and #4 are not repaired at all ...

Play it as it lies ... rub of the green ...

The real problem is that the PGA pro's are used to perfect conditions including their practice ranges, if they would practice at some of the same ranges that I do, then they would be more experienced at hitting from less than perfect lies ...


Ps:  I am adding this to the short list of revised rules for the GCA match Sunday morning at Callippe Preserve ...

[Bob_Huntley]

I've said this before and will again, but with an aside.

"Life (and Golf) is inherently unfair, get used to it.

Bob

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