ANGC--Poster Child for Everything Wrong in Golf?

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,

Vicksburg is considered "the South" by us folks in GR. In an affectionate, Jeff Foxworthy kind of way.....

Joe

[Dan Herrmann]

A.G.
I don't think anyone is asking ANGC to do anything differently with their golf course - that would be silly.

As part of its Masters telecast, Jim's suggestion of CBS doing a short piece on what it takes to get ANGC in "Masters" condition could go a long way towards educating the golfing public that those conditions are not realistic to expect (at reasonable expense at least).

Since ANGC dictates the content of the CBS telelcast, a program like this would have to be with the consent, or more likely the direction, of ANGC.

Here's a picture of #12 with the early AM maintenance crew:

[A.G._Crockett]

Jim,
My bad on the location; I should study my state abbreviations more carefully.  Heck, I didn't even know there WAS another Vicksburg!

I wish I could post a video of a walk through my neighborhood here in GA today.  70 degrees, clear skies.  Older neighborhood, with fescue lawns and the old azaleas that are now huge and so dense they look fake.  Birds everywhere; just stunningly beautiful.  ANGC would have to work mightily to screw this up.  (By August, everything will be wilted and brown in the heat, but today, who cares?)

I won't be posting pictures, though, so you'll just have to take my word for all this.  I'm off right now to play in a Hooter's Tour Pro-Am at Royal Lakes in Gainesville, GA, along with two of my closest friends in the world and a young pro we'll meet when we get up there.  How good is that for a spring day?

[PThomas]

A.G.
I don't think anyone is asking ANGC to do anything differently with their golf course - that would be silly.

As part of its Masters telecast, Jim's suggestion of CBS doing a short piece on what it takes to get ANGC in "Masters" condition could go a long way towards educating the golfing public that those conditions are not realistic to expect (at reasonable expense at least).

Since ANGC dictates the content of the CBS telelcast, a program like this would have to be with the consent, or more likely the direction, of ANGC.

Here's a picture of #12 with the early AM maintenance crew:

Dan - that picture captures one of the problems that Jim T spoke so well about:  why are all those guys maintaining the fairway part of a par 3 that never sees any play???

[Tom Zeni]

Cutting the fairway at Amen corner is a problem? You can clearly see the tee at #13, and the area around the 11th green. So what are they going to do, not cut 20 yards of fairway?  It would take more time NOT to cut it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Cutting the fairway at Amen corner is a problem? You can clearly see the tee at #13, and the area around the 11th green. So what are they going to do, not cut 20 yards of fairway?  It would take more time NOT to cut it.

Tom - are you sure you have this right?  Isn't 13 tee BEHIND 12 green, following the green path to the right of the bunkers in this pic, past the trees, to the other side?

They seem to be cutting the "fairway" area in between the tee and Rae's Creek on 12 - which to me also does seem like overkill.

13 fairway doesn't go IN FRONT of 12 green, does it?

TH

[PThomas]

Cutting the fairway at Amen corner is a problem? You can clearly see the tee at #13, and the area around the 11th green. So what are they going to do, not cut 20 yards of fairway?  It would take more time NOT to cut it.

unless I'm way off, that IS the area before the creek on 12

[Andy Doyle]

13 fairway doesn't go IN FRONT of 12 green, does it?

TH

No, but it would be silly not to cut this area.  In a fairly small area you've got 11 green off to the left with the bailout area to the right of the green, the tees for 12 in the middle and the tee and fairway for 13 off to the right.  If you didn't cut this area you'd have a strip of rough about 30 yards wide leading from the tees at 12 to the creek - except for the walking path you'd then have to mow down the middle.

AD

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy - fair enough, that makes sense to me.

In any case, you have saved my sanity... for a second there Tom Z. had me thinking 12 and 13 crossed... of course that would be extremely cool, but it also would have screwed up 35 years of accumulation of Masters knowledge.

 

[Andy Doyle]

With all the changes at ANGC the thing I dislike the most has been the introduction of the "rough."  When I first went to the tournament, it was such a cool thing to see all of the grass everywhere mowed to fairway height.  I thought it was one of the things that made ANGC distinctive.  Of course this fairway height is pretty close to most of the greens I play on most of the time - one of the many things for the regular Joes like me to marvel over.  This rough or second cut, or whatever they call it doesn't seem to concern the players too much.  It's not too deep - it only looks high in comparison to the very closely-cut fairways.

AD

[Gary Daughters]

Paul,

I think the answer is "because they can."

Augusta National is one take on "perfection," the version that comes from having an unlimited bank account to work with.  The point upon which many of us seem to agree is that ANGC's "perfection" should not be taken as an absolute.  That golf can be enjoyed in any number of environments, from the modest to the grand.  It is the game itself that is perfect, at least to me.

I don't think the guy who builds a mansion should be condemned because the guy who lives in a split-level wants what the mansion builder has.  If the split-level guy is envious, then he needs to look at himself.

A.G.,

You picked the perfect day to play, and I am indeed envious.  I find myself painting a bathroom and caring for a sick kid.

However, I will be in the car at 6 am tomorrow headed for you know where.  It is my version of Christmas.

[Mike Hendren]

Judging by the parallel orientation of the four carts in the pic above, I'm guessing they're sweeping dew with a rope between them.  Anybody going to the practice rounds or tournament should get there early and stay late just to see the maintenance armada at work.  

Question:

Is is possible Augusta National Golf Club spends exorbitant money on maintenance because they HAVE TO?

I'm guessing they make more money from the CBS contract than they can possibly spend and risk taxation on any giant surplus that is unspent.  I'd also like to know the sales/sf from their merchandise center this week.  

Hillbilly accounting, I know.

Mike

[Joe Hancock]

In the picture, there is one person on a mower and all the rest are on carts....doing...something....but not mowing.

Joe

[Jim Nugent]

I was curious about ANGC's green speeds.  Here is what I saw at augusta.com, in an article from the Augusta Chronicle:

"Augusta National officials don't release the figures on how fast their bent-grass greens can get, but longtime caddie Carl Jackson said they are "about 14" at their quickest."

http://www.augusta.com/masters/stories/040405/new_3799826.shtml

Probably not an impeccable source.  But several other sources put the greens in the same range: David Toms, for example, seems to say they are around 13 or so.  

[PThomas]

in Pete Dye's book he said Jack told him the Memorial greens stimped at 16 once


and Joe you are correct about the picture, thanks...but they still do maintain all that area as fairway, I believe

[Dan Herrmann]

I have a picture somewhere - I'll post it if I find it...  But when we got there last year, there was a team of about 15 people dew-sweeping 13 fairway - BY HAND!  They each had a long bamboo-like "whip" that they used to remove the dew.

If you're going to The Masters, try to park by the back entrance.  I parked my car about 50 yards from 13 green and you walk right down to Amen Corner.  Get there atou 6:30, and you'll be first in - it was VERY cool to seemingly have the course to ourselves.

By the way, here's a pic of the mowers on #16 green.  Doesn't look that different than what I've seen elsewhere

[David Lott]

Very unlikely that AN is spending money unnecessairily just so the club can avoid paying taxes. I think the members there understand that success results in taxation.

The amount of supressed envy in about 90% of the criticisms of ANGC is remarkable.

I've never played the course, certainly will never be a member but have visited and know a well run operation when I see it. If the PGA Tour tournaments could even approach measuring up to their standards of organization, decisiveness and challenging competition, we'd all be happy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, you are quite tedious.  I object to your standard method of response not because I can't support my position, am whining, don't have the courage of my convictions or any of the other rather offensive things you said to me--

I object because your intent seems to be to overburden the poster.  

You call asking pertinent questions overburdening you ?
How do those questions tax you ?
Or, are you really unqualified to answer the questions and/or support your position, which might just be the real issue.

I work for a living and post during the day when I have a few moments; I don't have time for a dissertation.  

Everyone else works too.

You posted your initial thread and made three additional posts before I posted.  It's amazing how you had the time to respond then, but, suddenly, when questioned by me, you don't have the time.  

It's not that you don't have the time for dissertation, it's that you don't have the answers to the questions.


In addition, your method seems to get you off the hook from ever having to take a position.  

Not at all, I take positions all the time.
Just ask TEPaul.

But, I don't duck questions under the lame excuse that I have to work or the dog ate my homework.

You ask what you believe are probing questions and then ask some more.

When you conveniently overlooked some of the questions I merely reiterated them.

I specifically ask you to share your opinions on the subject and ithen t is you, my friend, who evade the question.  

What questions did you ask of me ?
Oh yes, the question about filters, which I answered.
You offered an opinion and I questioned that opinion together with its basis in fact.  If you want to alter your opinion that's okay with me.

Could it be that you don't have much in the way of substantive beliefs and are just resigned to play the spoiler?

You can't be that naive or uninformed.

Pat, I've studied Socrates and you are no Socrates.

I never said I was  

My complaint about Augusta is that when held up as the gold standard of golf courses, it encourages overwatering, overmanicuring and ridiculously fast greens when that may not be appropriate for courses that are trying to copy it.  

How can it be overwatered when it's running Firm and Fast ?
Or, are you refering to previous years when it rained for days, if not weeks prior to the tournament.

What you don't understand is that the greens are not maintained at a ridiculously fast pace.  What you don't see is the substantive slopes on those greens.

The basis for the majority of your opinion seems limited to watching TV, and TV, especially with filters, presents ANGC in a different light.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here's a picture of #12 with the early AM maintenance crew:

Dan - that picture captures one of the problems that Jim T spoke so well about:  why are all those guys maintaining the fairway part of a par 3 that never sees any play???

Paul T,

Look more carefully.

How many of those vehicles are mowers ?

And, are you sure that the ONE mower pictured isn't going over to the 11th hole to mow those fairways ?

The only conclusion you can draw from that picture is that it's taken during the day, from behind # 12 tee and that 5 vehicles are going in different directions.

And, when was the last time you saw two men riding in a maintainance vehicle ?[/color]

[Mike_Cirba]

In the picture, there is one person on a mower and all the rest are on carts....doing...something....but not mowing.

Joe

Guys,

It's clearly a Union job.

The other four are supervisors monitoring the work of the guy doing the cutting.  

[Tim Pitner]

How can it be overwatered when it's running Firm and Fast ?
Or, are you refering to previous years when it rained for days, if not weeks prior to the tournament.

What you don't understand is that the greens are not maintained at a ridiculously fast pace.  What you don't see is the substantive slopes on those greens.

The basis for the majority of your opinion seems limited to watching TV, and TV, especially with filters, presents ANGC in a different light.[/b]

Pat, I'm interested in what others have to say, which is why I don't like responding to your posts.  I don't mind engaging in a lengthy dialogue if there is an exchange of information and opinions.  With you, you throw down a gauntlet of questions and walk away.  It's not enjoyable.  And you tell us nothing.  You may suppose you're scoring points, but you may not realize that you are the only one keeping score.  

BTW, I wouldn't cite your discussions with TE Paul--one recent exchange was truly embarrassing.  

To your points quoted above.  I don't know if your inattention to what I'm saying is deliberate or careless.  I'm suggesting that the conditions at Augusta cause other courses to do things they probably shouldn't do, like try to be as green or maintain green speeds at 13.  I'm not claiming that Augusta itself is overwatered.  I'm aware that the greens have significant slopes.  I'm not blaming Augusta for what others do.  For most golfers, Augusta and Pebble Beach are the courses identified as the best courses.  With regard to Augusta, I'm not sure this is a good thing given how it effects conditioning elsewhere.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

You, in your infinite knowledge, obviousy know that the method was an educational and teaching practice used between master, student and subject.

I never said it was infinite, but, yes Grasshopper, you're begining to grasp the intent of the method.  Asking questions makes people think, it makes them reflect on their sources and their data base.  Are they reliable or questionable.
Is their premise built on a sound or shaky foundation ?

If I contradict their statements, no thinking is required on their part.  
If someone makes a definitive statement, they should be accountable for it, and they should be able to discuss, debate and defend it. [/color]

The fact of the matter is that not everyone is here to be your student nor to be taught how to think in accordance with your cognitive methods.  

Look at the wonderful things I've accomplished with TEPaul.

Remember too, that I'm not here to listen to and accept flawed or erroneous opinions, especially those founded in unreliable third party sources.[/color]

Perhaps, most are here to exchange knowledge and information while you insist on extruding it from others by your mastery of the obvious approach.  

Better yet, why not present an alternate solution or position to develop ideas and thought rather than stifle them.

Because presenting an alternate solution or position doesn't require the poster to rethink his position or research the basis of that opinion.  You may prefer the "He Said, She Said" methodology, I don't.[/color]

Pat, I know your a smart guy,

I wish you'd convince my wife and kids of that.[/color]

hell I bet most of us do, sometimes I even agree with your positions when you bless us with revealing them, but when you go into this argument without position mode to counter someone else's questions you come off as a first class ass and I'm sure that's not what you want to be known as.
I wasn't arguing with Tim, I was merely questioning the basis, the facts behind his opinion.

He wants Augusta, Georgia to have brown grass in the spring.
You know that that's blatant stupidity, but despite several attempts to explain the weather and agronomics, he insists that the green grass, flowering shrubs and trees are all unnatural and what is wrong with The Masters.[/color]

Would you really deny that ANGC is over maintained?  
YES[/color]

How many gallons of Copper Sulfate is too much to put in a water system, even if it is moving?  

NONE on all of the times that I've played the golf course.[/color]

How much N is too much?  

The superintendent at ANGC could answer that, I can't, I live in the Northeast.[/color]

How much excess N - P - K - Fe does ANGC influence being put down on residential turf per year because nobody wants a dormant fescue lawn come the third week of August?
Does anyone know the answer to that question ?[/color]

Would you deny that it sets a false standard for the state of the game?  

YES[/color]

A better question maybe, should it be one of many possible ideals for the game?  

YES.  You and others continue to view the golf course solely in the light of four days a year, conveniently ingoring the other 240 days of their season.[/color]

I can't think of any other course in the world that gets all of its equipment donated annually and no I don't hold it against them or blame them for taking it either.

That's their good fortune and it shouldn't be held against them.  In addition, I'm not sure that that's a true statement.


Do you really believe that Augusta sand, bunkering and maint is good for the earth and the industry?  

In the context of your question, how is ANGC different from other courses ?[/color]

Do you think all courses should take a role in supporting the industry or should end justify means and the rest be damned?

I don't understand the question.[/color]

Do you really believe that the chase for greens speeds in excess of 12 is good for the game?  

Where do you come by that understanding ?
Again, you've fallen victim to viewing a 240 day season in the context of four special days.[/color]


Do you think supers aren't sitting on enough eggs already when it comes to turf conditions without a 12 stimp being held over their head?

That's not ANGC's fault.
That's the fault of uninformed individuals who can't interpolate.[/color]

Architecturally, would you deny that bowing to the length game by sacrificing the ideals of original design is a bad idea?

In general, additional length doesn't offend me.
Especially when it's for a limited number of golfers for a four days a year.
How have the members tees been lengthened ?  [/color]

Do you believe that Mackenzie and Jones just got lucky and that Roberts and Johnson knew more about the game than or how to produce a better playing field than they did?
Over twenty years ago, Jones decreed that he was unfamiliar iwth the game that Nicklaus was playing.
What's happened to distance in those intervening twenty years ?
You can't view tournament conditions today in a 1934 context.[/color]

What height do you think is safe for bent and poa in northern climates or bermuda in the south?  What do you think is a risky height: .225, .135, .110, .095?  How does that relate to every percentage of grade in a green given the grains of each species? How deep should you manage you topdressing and verticutting to minimize that impact in the pursuit of speed?  How much water does one need for green and what do you think is the subsequent cost per unit of water per square per year relative to fungicide budgets?

What's the temperature, the micro climate, the soil conditions, the wind, is the course on the ocean, a lake or large body of water, are the nights cool, what's the budget, the mean humidity ?

Fill in all of the variables and we can arrive at prudent conclusions, conclusions that will have to be fine tuned as Mother Nature dictates.[/color]

Does ANGC run a great tournament? YES!  Are they fair to the patrons and the regular Joe on the street and at home? ABSOLUTELY!  Would the rest of us in the turf businees jump for joy if they posted a 30 second piece about how great they are and that no one else in the world could possibly do what they do there or if they allowed an outside agency to do a piece on their budget or their reverse forced air perculating greens, play levels, drainage methods, overseeding costs?  YOU BET YA!  

Then maybe the general public wouldn't be asking us in the industry why they should pay what we charge for our light green turf because "this ain't Augusta you know!" and that comment comes at every level of product in the industry.


These are peception issues, or rather a lack of being properly informed issues.  That's not ANGC's fault.
It's failing to understand that the golf course is in Augusta, Georgia, in late March, early April, and that a MAJOR tournament is conducted for four days.

Almost every tournament course in the U.S. is "preped".
ANGC does it over and over again, every year.
That viewers don't understand that the golf course isn't like that 365 days a year isn't ANGC's fault.[/color]
 
Am I glad that ANGC makes great coin on the advertising for the foreign feed of the tournament so I can enjoy more of it?  SURE WHY NOT GOOD FOR THEM! Do I think keepers of soil should be more responsible toward their fellow man and the environment? YEP!  I think its a duty everyone who makes a living from dirt is willing to accept, but in this case it is manipulated and abused for no other reason than ego and that is wrong.

We disagree[/color]

Don't forget the reason they never told Socrates the hemlock was poison... he was such a know it all they all figured he already knew.

Truth be told, it was diet hemlock, rasberry flavored.[/color]

Cheers!

JT

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I'm interested in what others have to say, which is why I don't like responding to your posts.

You'll have to explain the logic of the above statement as it escapes me at the moment.  [/color]

I don't mind engaging in a lengthy dialogue if there is an exchange of information and opinions.  With you, you throw down a gauntlet of questions and walk away.  It's not enjoyable.  And you tell us nothing.  

I'm not trying to tell you anything.
I'm hoping the question will make youl think and that you'll discover the answer for yourself.

I've never walked away from a question.
You made statements and when asked to support them, you bailed, you walked away.

You only asked me one question, about filters, which I answered for you.[/color]

You may suppose you're scoring points, but you may not realize that you are the only one keeping score.  
I'm not trying to score points.
I'm trying to get you to see that there are flaws in your position, and when I question you, and those questions would lead a prudent person to reevaluate their opinion, you respond by avoiding the question and therefore, the issue at hand.[/color]

BTW, I wouldn't cite your discussions with TE Paul--one recent exchange was truly embarrassing.  

Which one ?[/color]

To your points quoted above.  I don't know if your inattention to what I'm saying is deliberate or careless.  I'm suggesting that the conditions at Augusta cause other courses to do things they probably shouldn't do, like try to be as green or maintain green speeds at 13.  I'm not claiming that Augusta itself is overwatered.  I'm aware that the greens have significant slopes.  

[size=4x]I'm not blaming Augusta for what others do.[/size]  

Then I'm a little confused.
I thought you were holding ANGC's feet to the fire.

I'm glad you've finally come around to understanding that ANGC hosts a Major Championship every spring in Georgia.
A championship that's televised and presents the course in a limited  and rare condition that basically exists for but 4 days each year, and that the golf course is nothing like that in October, November, December, January and February, and that the golf course closes in May.

That people believe that ANGC is as it appears for those 4 days on CBS, for the entire year, is their shortcoming, not ANGC's.[/color]

For most golfers, Augusta and Pebble Beach are the courses identified as the best courses.  With regard to Augusta, I'm not sure this is a good thing given how it effects conditioning elsewhere.  

Should they display the golf course under less then optimal conditions.
Hold The Masters in October when none of the trees, shrubs and flowers are in bloom, the grass is brown and the greens slow ?

Have you noticed a difference in the presentation and play of pre season NFL games versus the Super Bowl ?

Should every football game be presented as the Super Bowl is presented ?[/color]

[ChasLawler]

Tim,
Please ignore Pat. He suffers from selective reading comprehension skills. I've followed this banter from the beginning, and it should have stopped on page 2.

Pat - do you talk to your family and friends like this? If so - someone should punch you in the face.

[Paul_Turner]

Augusta during The Masters was considerably scruffier in the past, you can see this in photos from the 60s and 70s. It's most noticeable around the bunker edges and the creek.

PS
The majority of players are not averaging beyond 300 yards in driving. It's in the tour stats...only about 20 players  manage that.