ANGC--Poster Child for Everything Wrong in Golf?

[A.G._Crockett]

Tim Pitner,
A pretty key point in this is that ANGC closes shortly after the tournament, and doesn't reopen until the fall.  Consequently, the Masters is played on grass that will soon burn out, usually by mid-May.  I don't know where you are, but I can assure you that overseeded rye grass in a front yard in Georgia, with virtually no care, is so green right now that it looks artificial. If you walked through my neighborhood today in Atlanta, you would see not only this, but also tremendous azalea blooms and hear really, really happy birds!  The South is a beautiful, beautiful place in April, and it would be hard to have a former plant nursery overseeded with rye NOT look perfect if you just keep the grass mown.

Gary Daughters is right; a course that is open year-round that tries to look like ANGC is being run by dopes, and Augusta can't be blamed for that.  If you haven't been to the tournament, by all means try to go someday.  It is an amazing experience to walk the grounds, and it looks "right" even though it is perfect.

[Tim Pitner]

Pat, I object to your habit of responding to a post by throwing a list of 10 questions in the face of the poster.  Your intent may be to test the strength of my contentions (which is fair enough), but it becomes quite a burden to respond to each of your questions in detail.  Why don't you tell us what you think, instead, and support it with the sort of evidence you demand of others.  

I live in Colorado where it's never particularly green.  I know there are places in the country such as the South where it does get much lusher.

The point has been made, and it's a valid one, that some of the things I'm complaining of are not Augusta's fault, but more the fault of people trying to emulate the conditions there when it isn't appropriate to do so.  That isn't a revelation to me--I think the intent of my post was to suggest that Augusta isn't a very good model for other courses.

P.S. CBS does pipe in bird sounds--there may be natural ones too, but that's a fact.  

[Gary Daughters]

Tim,

Minor point:  CBS got busted piping in the bird sounds and stopped doing it.  They are known, however, to sprinkle bird seed around their microphones, some of which are surely embedded in the woods.

I disagree with your original premise, but I do understand where you're coming from and this is a good discussion.  So good for you.

[Tim Pitner]

Thanks for the clarification on the bird sounds.  I suppose that's a step in the right direction.  I wonder why they feel the need to do that.

[Gary Daughters]

Getting OT here, but as a viewer I like the birds, and as a producer I appreciate their ingenuity.  Piping it in was cheating, but everyone cheats.  At least it's not the news.

[Jim Thompson]

Yeah, but getting busted for piping in the songs of birds that aren't even native to south was pretty stupid.

[Jim Thompson]

Tim,

I'm sure John K or someone good with the search tool can pull up my review of Augusta for you.  Granted it was a bit over the top to feed JakaB's fire but... there was a lot of truth in it.  Don't feel bad about ignoring Pat either, until he brings something to the table you shouldn't have to feed him.

Good topic.

JT

[A.G._Crockett]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that was the Masters where the wrong fake bird sounds were piped in.  If I had to bet on my memory, I bet on the Western Open, but it really doesn't matter anyway.  

FWIW, I can't imagine the need for additional bird sounds in GA in April, but if the producers do, I see no real difference in that and adding human announcers.  It's just more sound to supplement or detract from the golf, depending on your point of view.

[jeffwarne]

The truth is nobody goes to Augusta anymore-it's too crowded
and it's definitely become insignificant as evidenced by the fact that only nine of the available twenty threads in this forum are discussing it---2 days BEFORE the event!

I'm amazed at the contempt that the finest event in the sports world can evoke.
 
Can't wait until I land in Augusta tomorrow!!!

[Andy Doyle]

... I know that many of my complaints relate to the tournament course and tournament presentation rather than the course the members play, but it still seems to me that Augusta/the Masters represents so many things that have gone in the wrong direction in golf.  

You can argue about the course changes (I'm OK with the increased length; don't like the trees or the rough), but the presentation of the tournament?

I went to the practice round today - my 7th trip.  This tournament exemplifies everything that golf tournaments should be:

I paid all of $31 for my ticket

Parking was free

They hand out a free 85 page spectator guide

Crowd control and routing is done very well

Everyone is unfailingly nice, even (especially) the green-jacketed members you see out and about

There is not an advertising sign anywhere in sight on the course

For lunch I had a chicken breast sandwich, potato chips and a diet coke - total price = $4.25

The fans/patrons are knowledgable and polite - one thing I noticed this time I hadn't seen before:  as an extension of the tradition of nobody messing with your chair once you've placed it greenside we saw 2 chairs that in dark marker had the message "Feel free to use until I get back."

I wish this was how all tournaments were conducted, not the extreme exception.

Andy

[Tim Pitner]

Andy, that all sounds fantastic.  What I meant was CBS' presentation of the tournament.  

[Andy Doyle]

Tim:

ANGC dictates a lot about how CBS covers the tournament - very limited commercial time, language (patrons, etc), appropriateness (or inappropriateness) of certain announcers, etc.  I doubt they can dictate the exact content of the broadcast.

AD

[Gary Daughters]

If the Masters is the example, then I wish ANGC produced the coverage of every tournament.  

No purple fairways, no commentators hosting cocktail bars, no swing analysis, no cars in the water, no oversize checks,
no interview with the sponsor.

The only things that come to mind that I would change about the Masters coverage would be the sappy music, ANY mention of azaleas and the Butler Cabin interview.  Perhaps they should do it on the porch.. might seem less stilted.

Oh, and Bobby Clampett.  Kenny.

[Tom Zeni]

When Kenny left, they should have taken Harpo Clampett with him. As for Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy, as Kenny referred to him, you need hip waders to get through all the syrup he pours!

Bring back Ben Wright, the 15th and 16th haven't been the same without him.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I object to your habit of responding to a post by throwing a list of 10 questions in the face of the poster.  

You created a thread and took a position.

You should be able to substantiate or defend your position.
Yet, you wither under scrutiny and claim foul.
If you make a statement, you should be able to support it and not whine when challenged.

I realize how difficult it is for you since you've never set foot on the property and have no understanding of the underlying agronomic and weather conditions that dictate golf course conditions in that neck of the woods.

And, you object to CBS's telecast, a telecast limited or virtually free of interuptions in the way of commercials.
Should CBS cater to your whims or the Nielsen ratings ?

Your intent may be to test the strength of my contentions (which is fair enough), but it becomes quite a burden to respond to each of your questions in detail.  

WHY, because you can't answer them ?
Because you don't have the data base or facts to support your position.
If you had the courage of your convictions responding to each of my questions would be a simple task.
However, your failure to respond is indicative of the lack of substance and merit of your positon.

Why don't you tell us what you think, instead, and support it with the sort of evidence you demand of others.  

I didn't start this thread and make the bold pronouncements that you did.  Don't evade the questions and whine when called to be accountable for your position.

I live in Colorado where it's never particularly green.  I know there are places in the country such as the South where it does get much lusher.

So why would you present or criticize ANGC in the context of the conditions in Colorado ?

AG Crockett explaination should have enlightened you and brought forth a mea culpa.

The point has been made, and it's a valid one, that some of the things I'm complaining of are not Augusta's fault, but more the fault of people trying to emulate the conditions there when it isn't appropriate to do so.  That isn't a revelation to me--

I think the intent of my post was to suggest that Augusta isn't a very good model for other courses.

In what way ?

P.S.  Jim Thompson hasn't been able to figure out what I
        bring to the table, so I wouldn't take solace in his
        comments.  Ask him if he's familiar with Socrates.

[Tim Pitner]

Pat, you are quite tedious.  I object to your standard method of response not because I can't support my position, am whining, don't have the courage of my convictions or any of the other rather offensive things you said to me--I object because your intent seems to be to overburden the poster.  I work for a living and post during the day when I have a few moments; I don't have time for a dissertation.  In addition, your method seems to get you off the hook from ever having to take a position.  You ask what you believe are probing questions and then ask some more.  I specifically ask you to share your opinions on the subject and ithen t is you, my friend, who evade the question.  Could it be that you don't have much in the way of substantive beliefs and are just resigned to play the spoiler?  Pat, I've studied Socrates and you are no Socrates.  

My complaint about Augusta is that when held up as the gold standard of golf courses, it encourages overwatering, overmanicuring and ridiculously fast greens when that may not be appropriate for courses that are trying to copy it.  

[Jim Thompson]

Pat,

Why don't you ask me?

I am more than familiar with the Socratic method.  You, in your infinite knowledge, obviousy know that the method was an educational and teaching practice used between master, student and subject. The fact of the matter is that not everyone is here to be your student nor to be taught how to think in accordance with your cognitive methods.  Perhaps, most are here to exchange knowledge and information while you insist on extruding it from others by your mastery of the obvious approach.  Better yet, why not present an alternate solution or position to develop ideas and thought rather than stifle them.  Pat, I know your a smart guy, hell I bet most of us do, sometimes I even agree with your positions when you bless us with revealing them, but when you go into this argument without position mode to counter someone else's questions you come off as a first class ass and I'm sure that's not what you want to be known as.

Since you dragged me into it, back to the question at hand:

Would you really deny that ANGC is over maintained?  How many gallons of Copper Sulfate is too much to put in a water system, even if it is moving?  How much N is too much?  How much excess N - P - K - Fe does ANGC influence being put down on residential turf per year because nobody wants a dormant fescue lawn come the third week of August?

Would you deny that it sets a false standard for the state of the game?  A better question maybe, should it be one of many possible ideals for the game?  I can't think of any other course in the world that gets all of its equipment donated annually and no I don't hold it against them or blame them for taking it either.

Do you really believe that Augusta sand, bunkering and maint is good for the earth and the industry?  Do you think all courses should take a role in supporting the industry or should end justify means and the rest be damned?

Do you really believe that the chase for greens speeds in excess of 12 is good for the game?  Do you think supers aren't sitting on enough eggs already when it comes to turf conditions without a 12 stimp being held over their head?

Architecturally, would you deny that bowing to the length game by sacrificing the ideals of original design is a bad idea?  Do you believe that Mackenzie and Jones just got lucky and that Roberts and Johnson knew more about the game than or how to produce a better playing field than they did?

What height do you think is safe for bent and poa in northern climates or bermuda in the south?  What do you think is a risky height: .225, .135, .110, .095?  How does that relate to every percentage of grade in a green given the grains of each species? How deep should you manage you topdressing and verticutting to minimize that impact in the pursuit of speed?  How much water does one need for green and what do you think is the subsequent cost per unit of water per square per year relative to fungicide budgets?

Does ANGC run a great tournament? YES!  Are they fair to the patrons and the regular Joe on the street and at home? ABSOLUTELY!  Would the rest of us in the turf businees jump for joy if they posted a 30 second piece about how great they are and that no one else in the world could possibly do what they do there or if they allowed an outside agency to do a piece on their budget or their reverse forced air perculating greens, play levels, drainage methods, overseeding costs?  YOU BET YA!  Then maybe the general public wouldn't be asking us in the industry why they should pay what we charge for our light green turf because "this ain't Augusta you know!" and that comment comes at every level of product in the industry.

Am I glad that ANGC makes great coin on the advertising for the foreign feed of the tournament so I can enjoy more of it?  SURE WHY NOT GOOD FOR THEM! Do I think keepers of soil should be more responsible toward their fellow man and the environment? YEP!  I think its a duty everyone who makes a living from dirt is willing to accept, but in this case it is manipulated and abused for no other reason than ego and that is wrong.

Don't forget the reason they never told Socrates the hemlock was poison... he was such a know it all they all figured he already knew.

Cheers!

JT

[Dan Herrmann]

Tim - Next year, please try to get a practice round ticket - either thru AGNC's lottery or eBay.

Last year's visit on Tu/We was almost golf-life changing (not real life!).  

I played Strantz' Tobacco Road on Sunday and was walking AGNC on Tuesday.   Two courses couldn't be more different.   One rugged and natural, and one - well it was Augusta.

And I appreciated both.  Greatly.

But I can appreciate the greatness and diversity of Bach, U2, and Vince Gill too.

[Joe Hancock]

But I can appreciate the greatness and diversity of Bach, U2, and Vince Gill too.

Dan,

You were doing so well up to this point.....

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

I assume there was careful consideration as to the BEST time of the year to hold the Masters?

As I said in another thread, the Masters is more hype than Michelle Wie....

The golf course is a good golf course, but not a great course. Hold this tournament in September and it would be....the PGA championship....compelling golf or no....the changes made to the course get way too much attention for all the wrong reasons. Where is the critical examination of what Augusta has become from the original design and intent?

[A.G._Crockett]

Jim Thompson,
I understand what you are saying, and agree with much of it. I know you are in the industry, and I'm not.  What I don't understand is what ANGC should do about it.  

You're in the South, so you know that it isn't really difficult to have lightning fast bent greens this time of year, especially if you are shutting down at the end of the month.  Those greens will be that fast without any of the problems we saw at Shinnecock last year because that's the nature of things this time of year here in GA.  Should ANGC slow them down to the detriment of the tournament in the hope (and only the hope) of helping the rest of the golf industry?  

Fescue and rye at this moment look great all across Georgia, and I don't know if ANGC should get the credit/blame for that or not; it's hard for those grasses NOT to look great right now.  But I think to ask them to somehow make the course look worse for the tournament in hopes of getting me to put less fertilizer on the fescue in my yard is a stretch of logic.  (Actually, in my case, it works in reverse; every August, I tell myself that the brownscape of my front yard is o.k. because I'm trying to peak for the first week in April anyway!)

ANGC has perfect bunker sand; given that they're going to have to bring in whatever sand is in the bunkers, should they make them worse in appearance in hopes of helping out supers elsewhere?  I can't see the logic.

I don't know what they put in the water, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that they are using more chemicals than I am comfortable with, or that they are using chemicals that I wish they wouldn't use at all.  If so, shame on them, and I hope they cease and desist.  However, short of that, I think that they are maximizing what is true anyway; Georgia in the spring is one of the really beautiful places on God's earth.  You don't have to try very hard to get it that way, especially on the site of a former plant nursery, and asking ANGC to go in the other direction and screw it up intentionally (or at least not maximize) is probably a little unfair.

I agree that many memberships demand ANGC-like conditions from their supers.  That is a management problem of the first magnitude, but it is theirs to solve.  Asking ANGC to crummy-up their course isn't the answer.  

[Joe Hancock]

A.G,

Great discussion. You just pointed out the culprit. It's the perception of what looks "better" or "worse". You alluded to AGNC looking "better".

It isn't important who to blame for making us all believe that green and perfectly manicured is better. Jim is certainly speaking globally on what would be better for golf and everything else. I personally don't think the Augusta look is better. However, it does do justice to Augusta itself, and I can't imagine it looking vastly different i.e. dormant grasses, native areas, raggedy bunker edges, etc. I, too, have become conditioned by the Augusta syndrome, but hopefully I can limit this perspective to ANGC individually.

Joe

[ChasLawler]

A.G.
I don't think anyone is asking ANGC to do anything differently with their golf course - that would be silly.

As part of its Masters telecast, Jim's suggestion of CBS doing a short piece on what it takes to get ANGC in "Masters" condition could go a long way towards educating the golfing public that those conditions are not realistic to expect (at reasonable expense at least).

Since ANGC dictates the content of the CBS telelcast, a program like this would have to be with the consent, or more likely the direction, of ANGC.

[Dan Herrmann]

But I can appreciate the greatness and diversity of Bach, U2, and Vince Gill too.

Dan,

You were doing so well up to this point.....

Joe

I knew somebody would catch me on that one  

Hey - he's a multi-platinum artist that can play a darn good game of golf.  (I'm assuming you were talking about Gill)

[Jim Thompson]

A.G.,

Actually I'm in the North not the South.  I'm in Vicksburg, MI (Michigan) not MS (Mississippi).  Anyway, I don't blame ANGC for doing what they are able to do, in fact I say good for them!  The parkland style of golf should have a penultimate shrine of excellence and ANGC fills that need.  However I do think ANGC does impact the expectations of the market and the industry in the U.S. and Lord knows its our own fault for falling for it.  I think if a cost analysis per annual round was ever released for ANGC it would help the majority of American golfer's realize why those types of conditions are not an alternative anywhere but Augusta and help the industry in turn.  Do I think that those of us on this board struggle with that? No.  But the general public and the majority of our customers do and, sadly, it continues to drive prices up across the country.  I don't think we can expect a fiscal press release anytime soon from ANGC and information is power in educating the masses.
Cheers!

JT