ANGC--Poster Child for Everything Wrong in Golf?

[ChasLawler]

Tim,

What you don't understand is that the greens aren't any quicker than most other PGA Tour Tournament venues, so how is Augusta out of sync ?

 

Pat, how do you know they aren't quicker than most other PGA courses?  Augusta does not tell the public what they stint at.  

I have absolutely nothing to back this up, but I seem to recall an interview with Davis Love a year or 2 ago where he indicated the greens at Augusta used to be much faster (and smoother) than anything the PGA Tour played week in and week out. The US Open and PGA Championship greens came close, but ANGC’s were always the fastest until some time in the late 90’s.

During the late 90’s, advances in agronomy and maintenance techniques allowed the rest of the courses to catch up with Augusta’s speed and smoothness. Davis indicated that now the only difference between the greens at ANGC and the greens at the average tour stop is the undulation.

I guess you could look at this either way.

1.  Pat’s right – green speed-wise ANGC is nothing different than any other PGA Tour stop

Or 2. In the desperate attempt for the average club to emulate everything Augusta, scientists and superintendents have been forced to create new strands of grass and new (more expensive?) maintenance practices in the effort to match the green speeds seen at ANGC.

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, how do you know they aren't quicker than most other PGA courses?  Augusta does not tell the public what they stint at.  

For a few reasons.
I have friends of mine who are on site who've described the pace of the greens, some of whom I would consider very reliable sources, and from observing the putts on TV, having had some degree of familiarity with the greens, from serving on a USGA championship committee for 15 or so years, from playing in PGA tour wednesday pro-ams, from being on site and spectating at PGA Tour events, and from having purchased carpet for my den by bringing a stimpmeter into the carpet store to make sure that any carpet I bought didn't putt under 10', and using that carpet to putt on all winter long.  ( do you know that some carpet has grain ?)

Now, how do you know that the greens at ANGC are putting quicker than most other PGA Tour greens ?

So you're guessing, too.  More educated guessing, but guessing nonetheless.

Well, you have some backup.  Here is what David Toms said about Augusta's greens several years ago...

"David Toms, who won the PGA Championship last summer, says the pace of Augusta's greens are probably no different from the many other courses where the PGA Tour stops each season.

He notes that the greens at the TPC at Sawgrass, where The Players Championship is contested each March, has greens that putt at about 13 feet on the stimpmeter. He adds that most courses the Tour plays register from 11 to 11.5."

The only other input I've seen is that a long-time caddy at ANGC says the greens stimp around 14 at their fastest.  Take that for what it's worth.

I have zero personal knowledge of whether the greens there are faster than most.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tim, golf is a big universe. It is the greatest game for many reasons, one of which is the variety of playing conditions and situations. Augusta National GC puts on the best event in the world to me. I love playing
Doaks par 3 course with no fairways or routing as much as beathing air as well. TOC thrills me. The Masters does as well. I just got home from the practice rounds and all I can say is wow, I love the place. No I do not agree with taking the brillant parkland adaptation of TOC which Jones and MAC created there and taking much of the off the tee strategy away. However It is still the best by far and omg I cannot wait to go back there again. I could spend hours on top of hours watching great players work around 2,3,6,7,9,14,17 and 18 greens,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim and Cabell,

Green speeds tend to be over exagerated or over estimated, sort of like the size of the fish that got away.

ANGC at 14 would eliminate most interesting hole locations, and make playing the golf course goofy.

The real shame with TV is the inability to show contour and slope.

It's truely surprising if not startling when you first see it.
Not just the property and fairways like # 13 and # 9, but almost all of the greens as well.
The plateaus on the upper tiers on # 13 and # 16 are scarey when they're SLOW.  As the pace quickens above slow they become exponentially horrifying.

With firm greens it's hard to get below the hole, especially if a hole is cut in front on greens like # 9, # 10 and # 15.

Remember too, that Mother Nature has a say in all conditions of play, and that the speed of the greens and the number of attendees at your funeral are usually determined by the weather.

Cabell,

Don't forget that ANGC had bermuda greens for a long, long time.  If anything, they adopted common northern grasses.

As golf became more popular, especially amongst snow birds heading south for the winter, the demand for better bermuda greens that would replicate the northern speeds they were familiar with, created the demand.

Remember too, that while there have been some amendments, ANGC hasn't flattened their greens in order to accomodate higher speeds, and they should be applauded for that.

All too many clubs are removing the character and challenge from their greens in order to accomodate higher speeds.

Jim Nugent,

I wouldn't call information from an attending, long time member, guessing.

[ChasLawler]

Jim and Cabell,
Green speeds tend to be over exagerated or over estimated, sort of like the size of the fish that got away.

ANGC at 14 would eliminate most interesting hole locations, and make playing the golf course goofy.

I couldn't agree more.

The real shame with TV is the inability to show contour and slope.

It's truely surprising if not startling when you first see it.
Not just the property and fairways like # 13 and # 9, but almost all of the greens as well.
The plateaus on the upper tiers on # 13 and # 16 are scarey when they're SLOW.  As the pace quickens above slow they become exponentially horrifying.

I couldn't agree more.

With firm greens it's hard to get below the hole, especially if a hole is cut in front on greens like # 9, # 10 and # 15.

It's actually pretty hard on soft greens too.

Cabell,
Don't forget that ANGC had bermuda greens for a long, long time.  If anything, they adopted common northern grasses.

As golf became more popular, especially amongst snow birds heading south for the winter, the demand for better bermuda greens that would replicate the northern speeds they were familiar with, created the demand.

That's a good point.

Remember too, that while there have been some amendments, ANGC hasn't flattened their greens in order to accomodate higher speeds, and they should be applauded for that.

I agree, and it’s the contour that gives ANGC’s greens the illusion of stimping at 14.

All too many clubs are removing the character and challenge from their greens in order to accomodate higher speeds.

My club included...its very sad

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Nugent,

I wouldn't call information from an attending, long time member, guessing.

Patrick,

Has the long-time member stimped the greens during the Masters -- or know what numbers the club comes up when/if it does so that week?  

If so, and he told you the numbers, then you are right.  If not -- which your earlier post did not say or suggest -- then you are guessing.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Has the long-time member stimped the greens during the Masters -- or know what numbers the club comes up when/if it does so that week?  

Is this like the question, "If a tree falls in a forest and noone's around to hear it, does sound exist ?"

You're saying that stimp readings are only valid if you do them yourself.   So, If Tommy Naccarato were to ask his superintendent or his staff what the stimp readings they took were, the answer would be invalid because Tommy didn't take them himself ?  ?[/color]

If so, and he told you the numbers, then you are right.  If not -- which your earlier post did not say or suggest -- then you are guessing.  

I don't think he used a ouija board or guessed.[/color]

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, I'm asking if the member knows for sure what the greens stimp at during Masters week.  If someone took the readings and told him, I accept that.  

Haven't yet gotten your answer.  So again, it sounds like you are guessing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, I'm asking if the member knows for sure what the greens stimp at during Masters week.  If someone took the readings and told him, I accept that.

He didn't hear it from the food vendors.

Haven't yet gotten your answer.  So again, it sounds like you are guessing.

How many times must you hear the phrase, "very reliable source" before you get the picture ?

What's interesting and ironic is that I use a member on site, in the know, as a reliable source and you think I'm guessing.

You've never been to ANGC, use nebulous, unnamed, unreliable third party sources to formulate your opinion, but, put forth your opinion as if you're not guessing

That's funny
Tell me that you see the inconsistency.

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, I'm asking if the member knows for sure what the greens stimp at during Masters week.  If someone took the readings and told him, I accept that.

He didn't hear it from the food vendors.

Haven't yet gotten your answer.  So again, it sounds like you are guessing.

How many times must you hear the phrase, "very reliable source" before you get the picture ?

What's interesting and ironic is that I use a member on site, in the know, as a reliable source and you think I'm guessing.

You've never been to ANGC, use nebulous, unnamed, unreliable third party sources to formulate your opinion, but, put forth your opinion as if you're not guessing

That's funny
Tell me that you see the inconsistency.

I have no opinion about what the greens stimp at.  As I've said several times.  Never been there, haven't found any source online that gives solid numbers.  What's disingenuous is how you keep referring to my alleged opinion, oh straw man, and also refuse to directly answer my question.  

It's a simple yes or no.  Does your source know that the greens stimp at 12 during Masters week, because whoever took the measurements told him?  Is that what he told you?  

If yes, fine.  Say so.  I accept that.  You didn't need to give me the shuffle about your carpets and your experience.  

So which is it, Pat?  Did he specifically tell you he knows they stimp at 12 during the Masters because someone who took the measurements there told him?  Or did he say something like "well I think they are around 12, I heard that the other day, too."  

P.S.  YOU are the one using your nebulous, unnamed source.  The one guy I quoted -- who actually backs you up -- is David Toms, as I said.  The other guy -- who doesn't -- is a long-time caddy at ANGC.  If you really want me to, I can probably find his name again, as it took me a few minutes surfing the first time.  Will you name your source, after you have answered the more important question about what he actually said?

Decide for yourself whether it's funny that you apparently missed the inconsistency in that.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was curious about ANGC's green speeds.  Here is what I saw at augusta.com, in an article from the Augusta Chronicle:

"Augusta National officials don't release the figures on how fast their bent-grass greens can get, but longtime caddie Carl Jackson said they are "about 14" at their quickest."

http://www.augusta.com/masters/stories/040405/new_3799826.shtml

Probably not an impeccable source.  [size=2x]But several other sources put the greens in the same range[/size]: David Toms, for example, seems to say they are around 13 or so.  

Jim Nugent,

You did write, this didn't you ?

You did quote "several other sources" didn't you ?

You didn't name those other sources or question if they themselves took the stimp readings, did you ?

And, you don't see the inconsistency ?
You are a lawyer by education, aren't you ?
Maybe that explains it. [/color]

As to stimp speeds there isn't a constant speed, during the day, or on a day to day basis.

I can tell you that they weren't stimping at 13 and higher.

[Jim Nugent]

OK, Pat, so you still have not answered my question.

So you are guessing too.

You know what?  Sounds to me like you are right.  I doubt Toms is wrong.  Also, the other guy -- the caddy -- puts the greens in the same range.  Why can't you just admit you don't know 100% for sure?  

I'm not a lawyer.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nugent,

How obtuse can you get ?

I"ve provided the answer, you just don't understand it.
And, guessing isn't involved.

[Gary Sato]

Seemed appropriate to bring this back.

[Josh Stevens]

Yes its awful, which does make me wonder why I am awake at friggin 2am every year with my coffee and left over Easter eggs  to watch it. 

Looks a little furry this year - lies around the greens are quite plump.  Maybe they took pity on Eldrick

[Bill Brightly]

Seemed appropriate to bring this back.

Gary, how long have you had these sadistic tendenicies?

I re-read this entire thread and I feel so bad for Tim. He had an excellent thesis. He just got swamped by Dr. Mucci's challenge. (The key line was "I'm not arguing with Tim" !!!

I'll just say this: If a Greens Committee member at Pat's club ever argued in favor of re-creating the conditions we view at the Masters every April, Pat would have carved that guy up far worse...