ANGC--Poster Child for Everything Wrong in Golf?

[Tim Pitner]

I used to love the Masters.  To me, my favorite tournaments to watch were the Masters, because it was usually exciting, and the British Open, because the courses were so different than what I was used to and because it was generally regarded as the world championship of golf.  Now, the Masters has fallen in my estimation.  It seems to represent many things that I'd like to change about golf--it's overly manicured, artificial (from the dye in the water to the canned bird chirping in the TV broadcast), unnecessarily long and the green speeds are too high.  

Now, I know that many of my complaints relate to the tournament course and tournament presentation rather than the course the members play, but it still seems to me that Augusta/the Masters represents so many things that have gone in the wrong direction in golf.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

Post your cell number so I can call you and you can explain how wrong you were this weekend.  Go to weather.com and look at the forecast...It is going to be a blast.

[Tim Pitner]

John, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but let me say I'm not talking about the tournament and whether the course changes make for a more or less exciting tournament.  I'm more concerned with how holding up Augusta as the gold standard of golf courses (as many people do) negatively affects golf.  This has been discussed before on here with respect to conditioning, but I think it's even more true in light of the recent changes (lengthening, adding trees).  I can't enjoy the tournament as much as I used to because I'm philosophically opposed to many things Augusta seems to stand for.  My bottom line is that it's too artificial--it's garden golf versus a more naturalistic version.

[John Kavanaugh]

When the hell was golf ever natural...This is a modern notion propagated by the butt boys for reasons I still fail to understand.

[Sean Leary]

Tim,

I assume that you aren't going to watch this weekend then?  

[Tim Pitner]

John, I'm not advocating pasture golf or anything that extreme, but I do think the excessive artifice at Augusta is a bad example, and I cringe everytime I hear someone fawn over it as the pinnacle of golf courses.

Sean, I will be watching because I enjoy major championship golf and they tell me the Masters is still a major.  Between Nantz's schmaltziness, the repetitive music, the azalea fade-outs, and the piped-in bird sounds, it's becoming increasingly difficult to enjoy.  Or maybe I'm just getting older and grumpier.  

[Sean Leary]

I just can't believe everybody here seems so put off by the changes in the golf course.  All of the changes aren't going to make it one bit less enjoyable for me to watch it.  Trees rough doesn't matter.  It is still by far the best tournament to watch on TV...

[John Kavanaugh]

I just can't believe everybody here seems so put off by the changes in the golf course.  All of the changes aren't going to make it one bit less enjoyable for me to watch it.  Trees rough doesn't matter.  It is still by far the best tournament to watch on TV...

Sean,

If this board had the access to ANGC we have to every other top course in the country you wouldn't hear half the bitching.

[Tim Pitner]

I just can't believe everybody here seems so put off by the changes in the golf course.  All of the changes aren't going to make it one bit less enjoyable for me to watch it.  Trees rough doesn't matter.  It is still by far the best tournament to watch on TV...

Oh, I don't know--the Goosen/Mickelson duel at Shinnecock was pretty good and I like watching players battle the elements at the British Open.  It's not so great when/if Tiger runs away with it again.  

My criticism of Augusta isn't so much about the changes; it would apply pre-recent changes as well.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Now, the Masters has fallen in my estimation.  It seems to represent many things that I'd like to change about golf--it's overly manicured, artificial (from the dye in the water to the canned bird chirping in the TV broadcast), unnecessarily long and the green speeds are too high.

Exactly HOW is it overmanicured ?

And HOW is the golf course unnatural ?

How can you say it's unnecessarily long when most of the PGA Tour Pros are driving the ball over 300 yards ?

What specific holes are unnecessarily long ?

What are the green speeds and why do you feel that they're too high ?  

.... it still seems to me that Augusta/the Masters represents so many things that have gone in the wrong direction in golf.  
What specific things ?

Are you aware that most televised events benefit from filters ?

[PThomas]

I thought they stopped the canned bird chirping....God I hope so, how stupid is that

and it is also bad that courses aspire to its "Perfect" conditioning

and Jim Nantz isn't great either....

[Mike_Sweeney]

I just want to be on record as saying that I love watching The Masters and playing Pebble Beach was one of my favorite rounds in golf and I will somday play it again!

[ChasLawler]

Tim,
I share some of your sentiments. As much as I enjoy watching the tournament every year, I agree that the Masters seems responsible for a lot of what is wrong with golf architecture/maintenance today.

I don’t necessarily blame it on the club itself though, or those making the revisions to the course. ANGC is doing what they feel they need to do to keep the Masters tournament interesting and relevant, and it would be difficult to argue that they haven’t succeeded.

It’s the golfing public that’s to blame for failing to understand that the revisions made at ANGC are for a very specific type of player  (the best players in the world), and should have very little relevance to anyone’s home club or course.

It’s also the golfing public that’s to blame for failing to understand that the conditions they see on TV during the Masters are the culmination of a year’s worth of maintenance efforts to have it peak during 1 week of the year.

[Tim Pitner]

Exactly HOW is it overmanicured ?

And HOW is the golf course unnatural ?

How can you say it's unnecessarily long when most of the PGA Tour Pros are driving the ball over 300 yards ?

What specific holes are unnecessarily long ?

What are the green speeds and why do you feel that they're too high ?[/b]  

.... it still seems to me that Augusta/the Masters represents so many things that have gone in the wrong direction in golf.  
What specific things ?

Are you aware that most televised events benefit from filters ?

Pat, I'm short on time so I can't give an in-depth response, but:

Augusta is the most manicured course I'm familiar with--the pros say as much.

Unnatural?  Coloring the water, importing trees are two examples.  

Unnecessarily long--courses such as Sawgrass and Harbour Town challenge the pros at 6900-7000 yards; 7400 yards are not needed.  It's simply not true that most pros drive the ball over 300 yards--check the stats.

Green speeds--I've read/heard that some of Augusta's greens are 13 or over.  I personally like reasonably fast greens but I don't like it when you have to daintily tap the ball with your putter or you putt off the green.  Can make for good TV but it's goofy golf.  

Specific things--emphasis on green grass and white bunkers; beautification over more rugged look.  

Filters--yes, your point please?

[Kevin_Reilly]

I thought they stopped the canned bird chirping....God I hope so, how stupid is that

The birds were in full mating ritual over the weekend in Atlanta.  Thankfully there were none at the Dinah Shore.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Exactly HOW is it overmanicured ?

And HOW is the golf course unnatural ?

How can you say it's unnecessarily long when most of the PGA Tour Pros are driving the ball over 300 yards ?

What specific holes are unnecessarily long ?

What are the green speeds and why do you feel that they're too high ?[/b]  

.... it still seems to me that Augusta/the Masters represents so many things that have gone in the wrong direction in golf.  
What specific things ?

Are you aware that most televised events benefit from filters ?

Pat, I'm short on time so I can't give an in-depth response, but:

Augusta is the most manicured course I'm familiar with--the pros say as much.

How familiar are you with the golf course ?
Which Pros said that ?
HOW is it overmanicured ?[/color]

Unnatural?  Coloring the water,

Which water feature is colored ?[/color]

importing trees are two examples.  

Pines are indigenous to the property.
In addition, the original property was a tree nursery owned by the Berckman family, specializing in Fruit and Ornamental trees.  So how is planting pines unnatural ?[/color]

Unnecessarily long--courses such as Sawgrass and Harbour Town challenge the pros at 6900-7000 yards;

How can you compare those courses to ANGC, they're architecturally different, as in night and day.

How would you compare the use of water at Sawgrass, Harbour Town and ANGC ?  What about green size and bunkering ?[/color]

7400 yards are not needed.  

It is at ANGC[/color]


It's simply not true that most pros drive the ball over 300 yards--check the stats.

Then why are they hitting driver 7-iron into 500 yard holes ?[/color]

Green speeds--I've read/heard that some of Augusta's greens are 13 or over.  

Where did you read/hear this ?

Are you familiar with the slope of the greens at ANGC ?[/color]

I personally like reasonably fast greens but I don't like it when you have to daintily tap the ball with your putter or you putt off the green.  

Do you recall ever seeing this happen as a pattern at ANGC ?[/color]

Can make for good TV but it's goofy golf.  

I'd agree, but, I don't recall ever seeing that at ANGC.[/color]

Specific things--emphasis on green grass and white bunkers; beautification over more rugged look.  

What color is the grass on the golf courses you play in the spring and summer ?

What color is the sand ?

Photos from 1934-1948 don't seem to picture the rugged look you seem to prefer.

What five course in America have that rugged look you like ?[/color]

Filters--yes, your point please?

Filters alter what's being presented to the viewer.
What you see is illusory.
Are you basing all, or the great majority of your comments on what you've seen on TV ?[/color]

[Michael Moore]

One of the ways in which Augusta National Golf Club is overmaintained, at least for the Masters tournament, is for the grass at the edge of the bunkers to be cut with scissors.

[Patrick_Mucci]

One of the ways in which Augusta National Golf Club is overmaintained, at least for the Masters tournament, is for the grass at the edge of the bunkers to be cut with scissors.

Which bunker edges were cut with a scissors ?

Did you witness the practice ?

What's the source of your information ?

Inquiring minds want to know

[Gary Daughters]

Tim,

I believe the problem is not Augusta National itself, but the witless country clubbers, developers, marketers and yes, golfers, who demand that their venues emulate it.  Which is patently impossible.  ANGC cannot be blamed for that.

[Dan Herrmann]

I used to love the Masters.  ...   It seems to represent many things that I'd like to change about golf--it's overly manicured, artificial (from the dye in the water to the canned bird chirping in the TV broadcast), unnecessarily long and the green speeds are too high.  

Tim,
I was there last year for the first time.  Trust me, the cardinals are very loud down in the valley.  They are not canned sounds.

I strongly suggest you try to get down there.  Seeing AGNC in person was one of the highlights of my golf life.  

[Tom Zeni]

Let's recall that the Master's has the weakest field of any of the majors. Probably not many more than 10-15 players can win it.

What we've always enjoyed about the Master's is its "theater." Nothing quite matched the back nine on Sunday. In fact, we may still have Nicklaus' 86 win ringing in your ears.

The course itself has always undergone change. Few recall that the two mammouth bunkers on the left side fairway of #18 that were placed there by Cliff Roberts because Nicklaus was so long.

Do I like the changes? I'd say "No" to most of them. As an example, the 11th is an architectual disaster. Soon, moving the hole further into the woods each year, they'll need Bambi as a caddie. And I can't imagine what they've done to the 15th tee box without interferring with the access road behind it.

[Michael Moore]

Pat Mucci -

I don't know.

No.

The Chicago Sun-Times.

[Tim Pitner]

Pat, I don't like the line by line approach you favor in your posts--they're hard to read.  You'll say I'm ducking a few of your points, but in reality, I'm busy and I just don't care to respond to all of them.

To a few though:

I realize Sawgrass/Harbour Town are quite different from Augusta, but there are other courses--Westchester, Hamilton, Shaughnessy--that are less than 7200 yards that challenge the pros.  

I've never been to Augusta; my comments are based on watching the tournament and preview shows and seeing photographs.  I don't think everything I've seen has been filtered.  If you're telling me everything at Augusta is not perfectly green and white, fine, I believe you.  

The grass I play on is some combination of green and brown.  The bunkers are more yellow/golden/brown than white.

As far as courses with a rugged look go, the ones I can think of that have hosted major tournaments of late would be Shinnecock, Merion and Prairie Dunes.

[Rick Shefchik]

Let's recall that the Master's has the weakest field of any of the majors. Probably not many more than 10-15 players can win it.

Tom: Which of these guys can't win it?

Pampling, Glover, Immelman, Jimenez, Beem, Sabbatini, Howell III, Campbell, Clark, Lehman, Calcavecchia, David Howell, Weir, Goosen, Hamilton, Olazabal, Toms, Donald, Singh, Oberholser, Woods, Allenby, Couples, Furyk, Maruyama, Herron, O'Hern, Hensby, Leonard, Ames, O'Hair, Zach Johnson, Verplank, Montgomerie, Ogilvie, Westwood, Lonard, Daly, Pettersson, Clarke, Appleby, Cink, Bjorn, Choi, DiMarco, Garcia, Ogilvy, Harrington, Mickelson, Katayama, Els, Love III, Cabrera, Scott.  

You'd have to throw out about 40 of them to get down to your 10-15 who can win the Masters. I've already done you the favor of weeding out the other half of the field -- some of whom (Faldo, O'Meara, Langer) have won the Masters and still have some game, and others (Micheel, Curtis, Molinari, Funk) who have won some pretty big tournaments lately.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I don't like the line by line approach you favor in your posts--they're hard to read.  You'll say I'm ducking a few of your points, but in reality, I'm busy and I just don't care to respond to all of them.

Tim, that's a weak excuse.

You found the time to create and post this thread and certainly understood that your views would be discussed and debated, and that you would be questioned.

To a few though:

I realize Sawgrass/Harbour Town are quite different from Augusta, but there are other courses--Westchester, Hamilton, Shaughnessy--that are less than 7200 yards that challenge the pros.  

Westchester defends itself with narrow fairways and ankle high, wirery rough.  And, if they could lengthen the holes, they would.

I've never been to Augusta; my comments are based on watching the tournament and preview shows and seeing photographs.  I don't think everything I've seen has been filtered.  

If you're telling me everything at Augusta is not perfectly green and white, fine, I believe you.

ANGC is especially prepared for four days each year, in the spring, in Georgia.

There isn't much in the way of brown grass when it's been warm and raining.

I would say that the sand is white, uncontaminated by enveloping dirt.

What everyone seems to conveniently forget is that this is a special event, and CBS wants to present the best telecast they can, and that usually includes contrasts, like white bunkers against green grass.

The grass I play on is some combination of green and brown.

In the spring and summer ?

What part of the country do you play in, which state ?

The bunkers are more yellow/golden/brown than white.

I'm  sure that they're appealing given the environment they're located in.

White bunkers wouldn't work well at Pacific Dunes, they do work well in other areas, such as Florida where the native sand, Sugar Sand is practically pure white.

As far as courses with a rugged look go, the ones I can think of that have hosted major tournaments of late would be Shinnecock, Merion and Prairie Dunes.

And you don't find any disparity or disconnect between the land that those courses are built on, their environments, versus ANGC ?

ANGC didn't have a rugged look in the 30's and 40's, why would you expect to see a rugged look 60 and 70 years later ?