[Tim Pitner]

As Mark states, golf in the USA is ridiculously expensive.  I have no idea how to reverse that, but it is a problem.  I'm a free marketer so, of course, if demand can justify the price, there's nothing wrong with charging a high price.  But, how did we arrive at this point where prices are out of whack compared to other countries?  Now, it's true that some of the famed courses in Ireland and Scotland, for example, are pretty expensive, but you're getting bang for your buck.  Here, it can cost $150+ to play some boring as hell, condo-lined, cartpath only, "signature design" in Florida (or elsewhere).  

And the cost of private memberships--wow.  Why is exclusivity such a requirement?  I'd gladly pay a fraction of the cost of membership and allow visitors at certain times like they do in Ireland, the UK and Australia.  Maybe I'll have to follow the lead of Goodale and Arble and head overseas.  I would miss Bandon though.

[Matt_Sullivan]

Pete, unaccompanied overseas guests on the premier sandbelt courses pay between A$200-A$300 (about US$150-$200). There are some bargains around though -- eg Woodlands is about A$100

[David Wigler]

Pebble $450

Shadow Creek $500

Whistling Straits $350

...

When is the price of a course simply too much??  Sometimes, even for once in a lifetime courses, the money is just too much...IMO...

Jordan,

Let me share with you a math problem I did with a friend considering switching clubs in a Board of Directors interview several weeks ago.  I will not name the club he is a member at.

Here are his yearly costs (And none of this factors in any amortization of the $45k down-stroke),

$1,400 per month dues - $16,800
$1,000 average assessment
$2,000 F&B minimum
$1,200 Range, Mill River, Locker room, Club storage, Christmas fund, etc.

That totals $21,000 before he plays a single round of golf.  He averages about 30 rounds per year (Michigan being a short golf season and he does not play in cold or wind).  He takes a cart which is $25.  That means he pays $21,750 for his golf and divided by 30 rounds, means he is paying $725 per round and believe me, his home course is no Pebble Beach.

An active golfer at a Midwest club might look like this:

$6,000 yearly dues
$1,000 average assessment
$2,000 F&B minimum
$1,000 cart, locker, bag, etc

50 rounds with a caddie at an additional $50 per round with tip.

$12,500 divided by 50 = $250 per round.  

For most Country Club golfers the Pebble Beach math simply is not that extreme.

[Chris Kane]

Extraordinary numbers David - for $21k you could hold memberships at the top six sandbelt clubs with money left over.

Where does all the money go?

[Sean_A]

Tim

I don't know about William Shatner's clubs, but mine are looking for members.  Shatner will probably say things are great up there, but I know the truth.  He lives in Scotland and they get a load of nasty weather up there.  He will probably give you a story about a micro climate.  Everybody in Scotland does.  The micro climates are so good that most Scotsmen live in England.

The trend over here isn't looking too good.  My fees have gone up 55% in 7 years.  Many top clubs charge in the region of £100.  Even the traditionally cheap areas such as South Wales have had prices sky rocket.  Pyle & Kenfig wants £50.  Southerndown wants £60 on the weekend!  I played it four years ago for £30 on the weekend with a bar lunch.

I really believe that if you want good, affordable golf with few frills, the US is hard to beat.  It is true that in remote areas of GB&I there are some fantastic courses at bargain prices that just can't be had in The States, but when I visit NC and Michigan there is plenty of good golf for $50-$75.  There are also some gooduns for $30-$50.  OK, so there are places like Pinehurst and Pineneedles which fleece people, but these are easily avoided.  The problem with folks on this site is that we are for the most part golf spoiled and addicted to very good golf.  

From my perspective the kind of money Dave W. is talking about to be a member of a club is silly stupid.  $20,000 a year buys a lot of nice golf on the road!

Ciao

Sean

[Paul_Turner]

The day ticket (36 holes) in Britain is often not much more than the 18.  So if you have time, it's better value.  Quite a lot of good quality clubs have 2 fore 1 voucher offers.

[Mark_F]

Its disappointing when these courses charge huge green fees, but they live by the sword - if they charge too much they will pay the price.

Chris,

That's just it - I doubt these clubs will pay the price.  

And, as you have noted, it has a knock-on effect in other countries, namely the UK, where, if it wasn't trophy-hunting Americans coming over to play, I very much doubt the clubs you want to play would be able to charge anywhere near what they do.

Some of the prices Sean mentions are ridiculous -

[Peter Pallotta]

Golf is too expensive.

Some of you have gone the "it's all relative/subjective" route, and that's certainly valid.

Some have suggested that for many on this board "cost is not a factor"; but since I don't personally KNOW anyone on this board, I'll have to take your words for it.

But for anyone (your 'average Joe' let's say) who's paying a mortgage and raising a family on a salary that would have to rise ten-fold to pay the initiation fee at some golf clubs, golf IS too expensive.

Does it matter to him that golf might be, relatively speaking, "less expensive than it's ever been before"? Should it matter to him that others speak of paying for the "experience" of playing Pebble Beach?

Now, Pebble Beach can charge whatever it wants: no one is compelling any of us to HAVE to play there. But when coming on-line is one "high end" course after another, then it DOES matter.  And that's what seems to be happening, IMO; and it doesn't seem to be an 'accident' either.

A few years ago, I started seeing in course reviews the following phrase: "so-and-so is a course few will ever get to see, let alone play".  When I first saw it, I thought it might be an accurate description of a given course.  When I saw it for the 10th time, I thought it was the work of lazy writers using an already-hackneyed phrase. When I saw it for the 100th time, then I said "wait a minute. No one is using this phrase as if it's a BAD thing that few will ever get to play the course; no, they're actually CELEBRATING that fact, and marketing it as a big part of the course's (supposed) appeal." Golf as a status symbol? Yes, indeed. [But why the lowly journalists are in on it I can't figure out]

Why do I want great but simple/minimalist architecture, basic maintenance practices (and unkempt bunkers), and fast and firm conditions? Yes, the purist in me prefers those things for their own sake; but the bigger part of me hopes - foolishly and naively perhaps - that a great and affordable public game can remain so.

Peter

[By the way, I wonder if it CAN remain so when we seem determined to keep building resort courses in the middle of a desert, and pumping in 300,000 gallons of water a day just to make any kind of play feasible - but that's my pet peeve, and I don't want to put anyone out of work]

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jordan,
Several years ago (at least 5, probably more) I read a survey done for Pebble Beach that said they could charge up to $500.00 before they would start to lose tee times. Looks like they're headed there.
There may be many reasons to justify such high fees for publically accessible golf, from relativity to exclusivity to free markets, but I can't even ask myself the question "Is a round of golf worth 450 dollars" without breaking into laughter.

[ed_getka]

There is no way Pebble will lose tee times at $500, and I would be suprised if it slowed down at $800. I just know that when my brother and I played there about 12 years ago for $225 it was tough to swallow, but now it seems like a virtual bargain. I just hope it doesn't go over $1000 before my sons get a chance at it, although I certainly expect it will.
    As to UK and Australian prices for visitors I for one don't mind paying them at all if it allows members dues to stay lower and the club provides access to their course.
   
Mark F,
   How prevalent is the trophy-hunting mentality you mention among Australians when they travel abroad? I am not talking about GCA types, but the average casual (if there is such a thing) golfer?
 

[Mike_Sweeney]

Golf is too expensive.

You are not looking hard enough. 15 miles from the George Washington bridge, a family twilight (after 1:00PM tee time) membership at Bergen Hills http://www.bergenhillscc.com/home2.cfm
cost $1995. If each family member (family of 4) plays 20 times during the year, that is $24.94 for each round of golf. They did add a trail fee this year of $5.00 per round.

It is a very nice Orrin Smith/Donald Ross course. I have taken a few of the board's raters there and most rate it a 5-6 on the Doak scale. With that membership, you also get to play (additional fee of $50-80 each play) 6-8 times per year at Forsgate a Doak 7, and Hawk Pointe a Kelly Moran 6-7 on the Doak scale.

It is obviously not an empty course, and I have never played there on a weekend day for fear of 6 hour rounds, but if you can find this in NYC, there has to be something near you too.

Want to play a really inexpensive, interesting Raynor course, contact Jim Kennedy. Okay he is not 15 miles from Manhattan, but it is not that far away.

PS. I have gladly payed once at Pebble, it was one of my favorite courses of all time, and I hope to take my son there someday.

[Matt_Ward]

Jordan:

Agree w Matt Cohn's take -- there's no perfect answer to fit all people.

Let me put it this way -- if you were to go to a casino and drop $400 in a night of gambling you might not think that's too much $$ for a night's entertainment.

Frankly, I think playing the course of your dreams on an ideal weather day with the ultimate personal foursome is something that can last a lifetime.

What people don't realize is the "branding" game these courses play with golfer's heads. There's plenty of unique and fun courses that do in fact exist in the USA and they are in many cases, equal or greater, than so many of the courses with overhyped advertisements. When I played in Ireland not to long ago I was amazed at the number of fine courses that fly below the radar screen and how many of them were well worth playing.

The Pebbles of this world can charge what they want because they cater to the very deep pocket crowd and various celebrities.

The sad part is not what Pebble does -- but the idea that all the OTHER high-end courses believe they are of equal or greater standing. For example, the America's Club in Wisconsin with Whistling Straits is not worth the $$ they charge. It is a fine Pete Dye layout -- it's not in the same category with Pebble IMHO. Ditto Shadow Creek. For a fraction one should play the likes of Greywalls in Michigan or Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV for even greater thrills.

[Jerry Kluger]

Why are the prices so high - because they can get it and they are in business to make money.  The more troubling question is why colleges and universities cost so much today - how can they justify $45K per year and they aren't supposed to be for profit institutions.  

Getting back to the thread I wonder what people would pay to play some of the great private clubs in the U.S.  How much to play Augusta National - a member was thrown out a number of years ago for charging around $500 per round.  How about Pine Valley, NGLA, Shinnecock, CPC, Seminole, etc.  

[cary lichtenstein]

All these great private clubs should have one Monday per year....open it up to the public where all the money goes to a local charity

[Chris Kane]

How prevalent is the trophy-hunting mentality you mention among Australians when they travel abroad? I am not talking about GCA types, but the average casual (if there is such a thing) golfer?

Ed, I assume its exactly the same as the American trophy-hunting mentality - I've lost count of the members at my club who've told me about their trip to Scotland for links golf - its always TOC, Turnberry, Troon, Prestwick, Muirfield etc.  Don't forget that we've become the 51st state of America - if you come here expecting anything else you'll be very disappointed!

[ed_getka]

Chris,
  I am curious about your 51st state comment. Could you elaborate please? I am assuming this is a bad thing in your estimation. As to my expectations when I come to Australia I am interested in meeting you guys in person and seeing some cool architecture. I am not a belt notcher in the "trophy" sense. I was looking at a list of "top 100 golf courses" the other day and there were at least 30 courses I don't care if I ever see. I trust you guys are pointing me in the right directions to see great architecture when I come down and I am confident as I do my research that you have.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I know for myself that too much was The Deuce.  The course was good (maybe even great), but the experience was a let down.  Whatever a place needs to have that certain something was lacking at Pinehurst.

I mostly only comment on long island topics and stay away from starting discussions. Im sure this has been beat to death, but Sean, I am lucky to spend alot of time in the Pinehurst area and can see where your coming from. My question is that "certain something" the Ocean? It seems that all the high end or 'ridiculous priced courses' are all located with views of the sea.

[Chris Kane]

Ed, next time our Prime Minister visits America, watch his desperation to do anything and everything to appeal to Bush.  Why do you think we went to Iraq?  I won't say anymore on politics, as there will be a small army on here ready to jump down my throat!

Back to golf architecture - Australia is different from the UK in that there aren't many "hidden gems" - the best and most expensive courses tend to have the best architecture.  If you were to play the top 30 courses on Golf Australia's most recent list, I don't think you'd miss anything outstanding.  The depth just isn't there.

[Wayne Freeman]

Golf in the U.S. is way too expensive-  that's why the number of people participating continues to go down, and why so many private courses are having problems getting members.  
    Jerry-  how much would someone pay to play the great ones?   Again, it's all relative.  If someone is trying to play the top 50 courses in the U.S. or the world, his budget for any of those courses is going to be pretty darn high, and if he's a CEO of a major company or whatever, obviously money doesn't matter.  I'm sure plenty of guys would fork over $10,000 to play a round at Augusta.  I have no doubt that if they auctioned off a foursome for some charity, it would fetch as much as $50,000 for a round there.  Is that outrageous- sure. But they would be lined upto get in.

[Jordan Wall]

After reading all this I see how maybe some of the public courses may be cheaper then I realize.

But what if you could not afford to be in a club, and spending $300-$400 could be used for something lots better, say for bills or something.  Then whats happens??  I find it terrible that some people may not be able to play some of the best courses in the world simply due to price...

[Chris Kane]

Jordan, even if Pebble Beach was free, most people couldn't afford to travel there.  Golf is a rich man's game - there is no getting away from it.

[Mark_F]

Mark F,
   How prevalent is the trophy-hunting mentality you mention among Australians when they travel abroad? I am not talking about GCA types, but the average casual (if there is such a thing) golfer?

Ed,

I imagine that most Australians are interested in good golf and good company first and foremost.  

That will clearly entail the more famous courses, but I think we may tend to search out the smaller courses more often than Americans.  Of course, this could just be due to the fact we get 4 weeks annual leave a year as opposed to 2.

Secondly, I think our courses are more akin to the average UK course than the average US club insofar as maintenance, amenities etc.   I've read numerous articles wondering why it is that Americans flock to play ruffian golf in the UK and Ireland, then head back to their immaculately coiffured country clubs where it is so totally different. I guess it is this aspect I am coming from.
 

I've made a couple of trips to the UK, and have stumbled across a few lone American travellers; most, however, are on some sort of tour; Monday Dornoch, Tuesday Cruden Bay etc, all crammed into 7-8 days.  

I very much doubt any Aussie would do that.

[Chris Kane]

Secondly, I think our courses are more akin to the average UK course than the average US club insofar as maintenance, amenities etc.   I've read numerous articles wondering why it is that Americans flock to play ruffian golf in the UK and Ireland, then head back to their immaculately coiffured country clubs where it is so totally different. I guess it is this aspect I am coming from.

Mark, Australian golfers aspire to the American standard of course presentation - why else would Metropolitan be so revered!

I've made a couple of trips to the UK, and have stumbled across a few lone American travellers; most, however, are on some sort of tour; Monday Dornoch, Tuesday Cruden Bay etc, all crammed into 7-8 days.  

I very much doubt any Aussie would do that.

Almost every golfer I've come across who has been on a golf trip to the UK does the "Thursday-Muirfield" thing - have a look at the back of the golf magazines, which are full of ads for trophy-track tours!

[Bob_Huntley]

Jordan,

I have written this before and I see no reason to change my message.

Life is inherently unfair. Get used to it.

There is a golden rule in life and that is, " He who has the gold rules."

No matter what we may feel about access to private properties, it avails us nothing if we do not have the wherewithal to purchase change.

In a socialistic state change may happen through ukase, fortunately the United States is somewhat different.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

I have written this before and I see no reason to change my message.

Life is inherently unfair. Get used to it.

There is a golden rule in life and that is, " He who has the gold rules."

No matter what we may feel about access to private properties, it avails us nothing if we do not have the wherewithal to purchase change.

In a socialistic state change may happen through ukase, fortunately the United States is somewhat different.

I understand money plays a big role in life and golf and life may be unfair.

That however, does not change my opinion that it is terrible for people not to be able to experience the best course in the world due to money related issues.

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