Opportunity missed...The land of 10 and 11 at Pacific Dunes...

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:  It's maybe 110 yards from the middle of 10 green to the middle of 11.  

John's short par 4 would cause some guys to fire blindly over the dune to the right of 10 to try and drive the 11th green in winter months, and it would endanger people playing the 5th hole, unless we changed that as well.

Early on we considered playing a short par-4 from behind the 11th green to the current upper 9th green, but we decided that too many people would lose their tee shot down into the tenth fairway, and anyway that created a closed loop -- you could play to lower nine green and then into that loop, but once you were on the upper ninth green there would be no way to get another tee anywhere close to it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Hitting driver off of the 10th tee would seem to create a safety issue as well, and a golfer, failing to drive beyond the dune would be left with a very blind shot over a very high dune, to a green hard by the Ocean.

Thank goodness JakaB's suggestion isn't a reality, as the premiums on your liability insurance would be unaffordable, causing you to seek another avocation.

And, we KNOW that the 10th and 11th holes are sensational, we have no such evidence that a par 4 in their place would be their equal.

And, JakaB has yet to tell us where he's going to insert the missing hole, unless he wants PD to be a 17 hole golf course.

[Paul_Turner]

For John's 10th/11th combination:

The "go for the green" drive would be blind.  But if you laid up, wouldn't it be a neat pitch to a skyline green? I know you like these Patrick

How much space behind the current 10th lower tee before you start to interfere with 7 on Bandon?  i.e. if you wanted to extend this hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

There is maybe 30 yards behind the tenth tee before you get too close to #7.  (My original routing had #10 as a short par 4, but the tee was in the middle of David's 7th fairway.)

One other factor I haven't mentioned yet is that two of Mike Keiser's favorite holes from day one were #10 -- from the upper tee -- and #14, which he suggested while we were out looking at #13 the day we discovered it.  Mike always said he thought the more holes we had which felt like they were on the ocean, the better people would like it.  I know John hates that, but tell me he was wrong ...

[paul cowley]

Guys, I'd give up the exercise...a fun thought provoker but one that leads to too many dead ends unless you start routing from scratch....you would be much better off analyzing re-routing Pebbles 9 thru 13 in reverse as opposed to screwing with her nearest competitor, Pacific Dunes.

[tonyt]

Yet another perfectly worthy question, but one which again highlights the American fascination with the scorecard over the actual golf course. Worse still, that people here are admitting that when they put down the scorecard and play the course, they like this stretch and feel no such awkwardness on it. When the day comes that I play on a scorecard and write my numbers down on a golf course, I'll possibly come closer to this way in thinking.

[Tom_Doak]

Amen to that, Tony.

[John Kavanaugh]

Yet another perfectly worthy question, but one which again highlights the American fascination with the scorecard over the actual golf course. Worse still, that people here are admitting that when they put down the scorecard and play the course, they like this stretch and feel no such awkwardness on it. When the day comes that I play on a scorecard and write my numbers down on a golf course, I'll possibly come closer to this way in thinking.

Tony,

I don't understand what a fascination with a scorecard has to do with a dislike of four par 3's in the final nine holes.  Like Tom has said above many people like the configuration because it helps them shoot a lower score.  I personally play nothing but match play and have zero idea what I shot at any of the Bandon courses...My problem centers around competition and interesting shot making.  I don't know about you but in almost every game I play the back nine plays a different role than the front.  In other words the back nine is worth more in more ways than one.  This being said it disappoints me to see so many scoring shots hit off of perfectly flat areas with a ball on a peg.  It disappoints me to see the ignorant golfer go unchallenged on so many holes...It disappoints me to see the luck of a bounce removed from the game...the gamble taken from the gamble.  To put it bluntly...Tell me..Given the great history of this game and the role the driver has played, how can one of the greatest courses ever built in modern times not require a decent drive on the home stretch of 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18.

[Ted Kramer]

Yet another perfectly worthy question, but one which again highlights the American fascination with the scorecard over the actual golf course. Worse still, that people here are admitting that when they put down the scorecard and play the course, they like this stretch and feel no such awkwardness on it. When the day comes that I play on a scorecard and write my numbers down on a golf course, I'll possibly come closer to this way in thinking.

Tony,

I don't understand what a fascination with a scorecard has to do with a dislike of four par 3's in the final nine holes.  Like Tom has said above many people like the configuration because it helps them shoot a lower score.  I personally play nothing but match play and have zero idea what I shot at any of the Bandon courses...My problem centers around competition and interesting shot making.  I don't know about you but in almost every game I play the back nine plays a different role than the front.  In other words the back nine is worth more in more ways than one.  This being said it disappoints me to see so many scoring shots hit off of perfectly flat areas with a ball on a peg.  It disappoints me to see the ignorant golfer go unchallenged on so many holes...It disappoints me to see the luck of a bounce removed from the game...the gamble taken from the gamble.  To put it bluntly...Tell me..Given the great history of this game and the role the driver has played, how can one of the greatest courses ever built in modern times not require a decent drive on the home stretch of 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18.

Interesting question regarding 14-18.
But can you par or even compete on #18 without a solid drive?

-Ted

[John Kavanaugh]

Ted,

Even at 575 yds you simply hit two 210 yd shots and have 155 to get home...pretty simple par.  Let's say you pull a driver into the left bunker which makes the hole a bit shorter...250yd drive...6 iron punch out..7 iron home....You can hit a drive anywhere over 220 yds and get an easy par..

[Tim Pitner]

John, on paper, what you say about #18 is true.  But, into the wind, all of a sudden, it's a driver, 3 wood, 5 iron (which is what I hit last time I played it and, while not crazy long, I'm by no means a short hitter).  That's not such an easy par.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted,

Even at 575 yds you simply hit two 210 yd shots and have 155 to get home...pretty simple par.  Let's say you pull a driver into the left bunker which makes the hole a bit shorter...250yd drive...6 iron punch out..7 iron home....You can hit a drive anywhere over 220 yds and get an easy par..

That sounds like a very classroom type discussion of the hole being discussed. I just didn't think it was that simple in either of my 2 rounds there. I don't think that your post comes anywhere close to defining the reality of actually playing #18 PD.

-Ted

[John Kavanaugh]

What are the strategic choices presented to the golfer on 18 tee...or should I say choice.  Long or longer that is..Is the left bunker a paper tiger..

[Tim Pitner]

I'd concede that #18 doesn't present the same sort of strategic choices as, say, #6 or #16.  That said, a drive to the left side of the fairway on #18 will reduce the length of the hole and take some of the bunkers on the right side of the fairway out of play.  To some degree, driving toward the left side makes the left bunker in play.  I've seen several good players drive it in the sand on the left, so I wouldn't call it a paper tiger.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

Once the good player is in the sand on the left does he have any further trouble with the hole....Is there any true penalty for pulling the drive..

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim,

Once the good player is in the sand on the left does he have any further trouble with the hole....Is there any true penalty for pulling the drive..

JK - great questions here, you have me thinking.  But I am still siding with Tim for the most part.  That bunker is not a nice play to be... you'd have to get VERY lucky to have a shot out with anything other than a pretty darn high-lofted iron, and it can get a LOT worse - a chop out sideways, etc.  In any case once in there, you're going to lose a lot of yardage in the best case scenario.  So for the very very good player this isn't that big of a deal - he still reaches in three, but his third shot is somewhere from 200-150.  For normal golfers, hit it in there and reaching in three becomes out of the question.

Hard to see this as a paper tiger.  But I must admit you do have me thinking.  Because except from the very very tips, one surely could play 18 with two well struck 2irons or hybrids, take the bunker totally out of play, leaving a reasonable 9iron-wedge for the third.  The second would be a blind shot, but hell it's tough to get it to where that's not blind even with a driver.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Tim,

Once the good player is in the sand on the left does he have any further trouble with the hole....Is there any true penalty for pulling the drive..

Ah, that's what you meant by "paper tiger."  I've never played that shot but I've had a look from over there and it's not pretty.  As Tom says, it's a shot that you have to get up in a hurry if you're going forward.  If you're able to do that, it's completely blind and you will lose distance.  Into the wind, that may mean playing a wood into a green guarded by some nasty bunkers (which I know you don't care for too much).  As I recall, the guys I've seen in there ended up with some big numbers.  It's enough of a penalty that you are tempted to drive to the right side and, although the fairway is quite wide, you can run out of fairway over there and driving right makes the hole play longer.  

I would rate #18 in the bottom third of the holes at Pacific, but it's still a good hole.  I'm sure some people don't like ending on a three-shot par 5.  But, it's not a bad way to end a testing round (particularly in the windy afternoon), with a shot to play with so you can be off a little and still have a chance to make it into the house with a par.  And, it's a brute into the wind.  In my group, my driver, 3 wood, 5 iron made me the only player to come close to hitting the green in regulation.  

[Michael Hayes]

John Kavanaugh--

I love the debate that you have started but here is where I have to really jump ship and tell you that you are being crazy...  Left on 18 is potential death for any level of player.  Furthermore 16 is a hole that really requires a precise drive or one is left at the mercy of the hollows short right.  

I am happy to inform everyone that next year JK will be playing his own ball over the entire Pac Dunes course and will be MUCH better prepared to evaluate the golf course.  UNLESS IT RAINS 2 INCHES DURING THE FRONT SIDE LIKE IT DID THIS YEAR!!!  Our experience this year was really one of survival.  I could not have been able to make any real judgements of the course IF IT WERE MY FIRST PLAY!  (we were in the same group during his only play there)

MIchael Hayes

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,

We had a great time that day didn't we...I'm trying to recall the details of our match..Were we even after 17 holes.  I think I remember winning the 18th but am not sure about the match..

[Michael Hayes]

 JOHN K.  The match was 2.5 to 0.5 in your favor, my father & I stumbled mightly down the stretch allowing you a half on the backside.  

It is funny how painful a memory that is, even without a penny changing hands !

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought the 18th won us something even if it was only one half a point.  With all this talk about how a guy gets to the green it is hard to believe a father and a son could take four putts to get it in the hole..Doak is a genius..It must have been all those putts that made me thing a single drive wasn't that vital..

[Tom Huckaby]

Four putts?  In match play?

Man you are a hardass, JK.  They couldn't come close after two for you to give them the third?  And here the guy poured out his soul, welcomed you into his great group, allowed you to tag along with his father.... Shame on you.  Some things are far more important than winning a match,.

 

[Michael Hayes]

3 putts!  THE FIRST WAS FROM OFF THE GREEN.  If I recall correctly IT WAS A WAR OF ATTRITION    Quality was not a word I would have used to describe the golf that day!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,

I love it was off the green excuse...What ever you do don't tell about my tee shot on 17...The hole was anything but a par 3 for me that day..

[peter_p]

It's funny how one's perceptions about a golf course are coloured by their ability off the tee. I can't remember hitting anything other than a fairway wood into 18 as the third shot.