Feature Interview with Joe Gay is posted

[Ran Morrissett]

Joe is the Director of Golf at Tobacco Road, located in Sanford, North Carolina, about 30 minutes from Pinehurst.

As anyone who has played there knows, this public access course hasn't been dumbed down. With bold and daring features present to confound the golfer, many locals swear by it and a few first timers vow not to return.

Like most golfers, I vote with my time and other than my local Southern Pines Country Club a few blocks from my house, I will play more rounds at Tobacco Road than any other course this year. Once one gets around the WOW factor, one can start to appreciate all the neat shots that are to be had here, with such shots being truly unique to this course.

In his Feature Interview, Joe talks about the pros and cons of operating such a different course. GCA.com hasn't done a Feature Interview from this perspective to date and we hope you'll enjoy this one. Joe will be answering questions from time to time.

Cheers,

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

The amazing thing to me is that Tobacco Road does not stand out for more people.  Given the obvious contrast between the similar look, which the courses in Pinehurst have, visually Tobacco Road is far more stunning.

I was happy to have played with Ran who pointed out the contours to steer approach shots, because as Ran said, you come to appreciate them more and more.

The strategy was wonderful, from the numerous options on the first hole, to placement of the tee ball on four, five, seven, nine, etc.

A few questions, does six play significantly harder from any particular angle?  The middle portion of the tee complex?

Should the trees be cut back on 11?  Sure this would reward the shorter tee shot with a chance to go for it, but the carry is longer and arguably more difficult.

Lastly, as Ran pointed out, Tom Paul's maintenance meld is alive and well at Tobacco Road.  Wonderful, especially given the unique green complexes.

The quote that Joe borrowed from St. Andrews is tellingly about the course they run, how many daily-fee courses carry that sentiment?

[A.G._Crockett]

Ran,
Thanks for the interview and pix.  I agree with Ben that it is hard to understand how this course doesn't get more attention.  It is living proof that length alone doesn't make a modern course better.
The first time I played Tobacco Rd., I literally laughed out loud all the way around the course because of the visual fun of playing almost every shot.

[Paul Daley]

Thanks for the great interview Ran and Joe.  

In this day and age, it is so hard to carve out a unique looking course with its own stamp. But "Baccy" Road seems to more than most. Power to Mike Strantz, Co., and construction team.

[RJ_Daley]

Joe, a well spoken interview.  I can't wait til I return to that area.  A trip to that region would not be complete without stopping by TR for a round or two.  I can totally understand how one who lives close enough and is lucky enough to play many rounds there would find more new and interesting local knowledge features every time one tees it up.

Joe, is there any provision for a local resident to buy a multiple play pass or actual membership of sorts, given you are a daily fee operation?

If I were Ran, to have the variety of once a week at TR and once a week at SP would be almost heaven...

[George Pazin]

Another great interview.

I'm disappointed to hear birdies abound on 16 - I thought I was special. It's surprising to me, though - even though the hole is relatively short, with the elevated green & the fairly severe contours, I think it's a great shorter par 4. I consider the huge breaking putt I made to be one of my best - I think it would've rolled off the front of the green (from the upper tier) if it hadn't gone in.

The only feature I wasn't thrilled at was the shallow & wide greens on several holes. This seems like a feature that plays into the hands of the better players while penalizing the lesser players to a greater degree. However, I'm a lesser player, so maybe I'm just biased.

There was also one of the absolute worst trees I've ever seen in front of the most forward tee on #4. I was there with my wife & was stunned that the tee was darn near right in front of the tee - hopefuly BillV has seen it & arranged for a lightning strike. Also, the tree canopy on #3 was kind of low. But again, I'm the anti-tree hugger.

The course was definitely a tremendous amount of fun to play. Huge variety & you definitely have to think your way around. The 18th tee shot is super intimidating to a lesser player like me, but is not nearly as hard as it looks. Mackenzie would be proud.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Ran

Great interview.  Not only does it make me want to play Tobacco Road, it also gives a lot of good insight into how a course matures and evolves in its early years, and how a knowledgable and GCA-sensitive on-the-ground manager such as Joe Gay can complement the work of a talented architect such as Mike Stranz.

Rich

[LocalPro]

Ben,
Thanks for the comments.  To answer some of your questions, #6 plays to about the same difficulty from either angle.  If your weakness is distance control, then the tee box closest to #5(far left) is going to give you trouble.  If accuracy is the problem, then the far right tee box creates a hole with a deep green but little "wiggle" room for pushes and pulls.

It's my opinion that the trees should not be cut back on #11.  On days when the fairway is wet or the wind is in your face,   play your tee shot further left in order to give you room to fade the ball (which usually produces a higher ball flight, perfect for that elevated green complex) around the trees to the front left portion of that green.  Furthermore, cutting those particular trees may expose the back of the driving range and I personally like that natural buffer.


Hey RJ,
We do have a "discount card" for our locals to buy.  It's a great deal.  Better yet, become one of my "player assistants" or starters.  I'll pay you minimum wage and let you play for free!


Hey George,
Great news!  We moved the most forward tee box on #4 for the very reason you mentioned.  The two trees did a great job of framing the hole from the middle and back tees, so Mike decided to relocate the foward tee rather than remove the trees.  So, call off the contract for the "hit" from BillV.

 
Thanks again for the interest,

Joe Gay

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Joe,
Great point about the driving range, I did not see the range.

One more quick question, what is the common play on five from the good players?  Do they try to drive in the hollow or play out right?

Best,
Ben

[RJ_Daley]

Joe, I'm loading up the truck and packing the Mrs on board and I'm on the way!  It will be like the opening scene of the Beverly Hillbillies in reverse...

[Scott_Burroughs]

Joe,

You sure do get your exposure.  Your picture was (again) in the paper (N&O) today (along with several times in the past) for your TR ad.

I've sang my praises for TR several times on GCA and always recommend it to people coming to the area.  Some people say that higher handicappers won't like it because of forced carries and the initimidation factor.  My mom and stepdad played it for the first time this year and loved it!

How about cutting the trees back on the 2nd shot lay-up area on #11?  It's a rather small landing area.

The best idea I've heard (from Ran) was to replace #17 (and it's cutback to 18 tee.  I've seen people heading towards #16, to the left after finishing out because they didn't know where to go.) with a long-ish uphill par 3 between #12 green and #13 tee.  Plenty of room for it and the gorse (or whatever) is already there for looks.

Also, from tips, right side of #15 fairway is completely blind (don't know it's even there for first timers), but there is absolutely no benefit from being there as you can't see any of the green. Left (visible) side of fairway is best.  Usually better side of fairway should be the blind side.

As for narrow greens, besides #17, I think #14 is a bit on the narrow side, for the strict penalties given for missing left (sh%t) or right (pond).

[LocalPro]

Ben,
I believe the player that "thinks" he is good goes for the green almost every time.  The truely good player knows he can hit a wedge close on the second shot and make just as many birdies.  There are days when the hole plays down wind that the "heroic" shot is the correct play.  The problem is that should you not hit the green, then the touch shot out of the collection area in front of the green is harder than the full wedge.  Worse yet, who is good from out of the sandy "natural" area from 50 yards if you don't hit either the green or the collection area.  As Clint Eastwood once said "A man's got to know his limitations."  

Thanks,

Joe

[LocalPro]

RJ,
Your hired!  Can your wife work a cash register?

Scott,
I'll try to get back on line later to respond.  I'm used to posting college basketball and football comments on ACCboards where I don't have to think.  All I have to do is type "Duke sux" and fit in. Hopefully I'll see you at about 9:30pm EST.

Joe

[RJ_Daley]

Oh yeah, she is a woman of many talents.  You should see her handle a credit card!  

Joe, I'm a utility man, certified pesticide applicator in WI., and GCSAA trained spray tech., and I can utilise that knowledge to mix drinks in the bar!

[George Pazin]

Joe -

That is good news for anyone playing the forward tees. How have you found the reception for your method of tee recommendations? For those who haven't played at TR, there are 4 or 5 (I can't remember) sets of tee markers with recommended tees for different handicap level golfers. I wonder how many golfers follow them - my guess is not many, though I will say it's an interesting idea. Not necessarily recommended if you play like me - somewhat long but pretty wild. I played the forward most tees the first 4 holes with my wife (it was her first time on a golf course - how's that for spunk? ) & they were actually the tees recommended for my level at that time. I hit 7 or 8 iron off 1, 2 & 4, then realized I should move back. I think I actually moved back two sets, though it was awhile ago, so my memory might be in error.

Does anyone walk the course? It seemed very walkable in spots, but rather difficult in others. I remember almost geting lost on the drive from 14 to 15. Would walking allow one to shortcut through some areas?

It was a great experience regardless. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to our questions - please join the rest of the discussions, too - it's always nice to hear a fresh voice.

P.S. Whatever Dick will work for, I'll take less - I don't have any kids to support. Of course, I lack all of those skills he listed, so maybe the money would be better spent on him. Unless you're looking for a t shirt printer with a math degree.

[LocalPro]

RJ aka "spraytech",

Please read your lables well before you mix my drink, that fungicide has some kick you know.


Hey Scott,

I hadn't thought much about the layup on #11 being narrow, I'm the idiot in the sand 30 feet below the green after that cut 3 wood that I talked about earlier.

I have also talked to Ran about the space between #12 and #13 being a natural spot for a long par 3.  The idea has some merit on many fronts: eliminates a long walk for those who like to loop, easy flow from current #16 to #18, and being able to add a long par 3 to a collection of great short and medium range ones.  However; being the greedy pro/manager that I am, if we had an extra 200k laying around, I may be tempted to use the cash to market the course rather than change it.

I like the "bail-out" on #15 to the right.  Not only do I need it a times, but I also will intentionally hit it right when the pin is on the left.  The angle created by being on the far right side of the fairway turns the large mound in the back of the green into a backboard.  

The green on #14 is as narrow as the green on #17 is shallow, but with a wedge to a 7 iron for either shot, I think that keeps it fair.  We do have a tee box on #14 that is 194 yards.  Walk up there some time, it is scary!  But, we only save that one for special occasions.

The tee recommendations help, but it's not the perfect solution.  We have four sets of tees and at 6554yards from all of the way back, many gravitate to the championship tees.  The recommendation just reminds everyone that this course isn't about length.  There is more to it than that (at leaast that's what I tell my wife)

[Scott_Burroughs]

Joe,

My comment on your "exposure" in the N&O ads was meant to have a   in there.  Not sure I've ever seen an ad with the pro in it!

I know about the 2nd shot landing area because of a pulled drive in the left side of the W I D E landing area, leaving any go at the green impossible.  A long iron from there to the 2nd shot landing area was a little dicey due to it's relative small size.  I think if I was a fader, I would have been ever more scared.

I am a 'looper' and yes, that's part of the reason I think a long par 3 belongs between 12 and 13.  The other was the variety reason.

In my few times around, I haven't seen the pin on the left side of #15.  

I definitely have seen the back tee on #14 and have walked up there.  The green is definitely too narrow from back there.  The tee seemed basically closed/not kept up my last time a year ago.

I play the tips and enjoy it.  Last year I started on the back nine and was 1-over after nine which included a 3-putt on 13 from 15 feet (2nd try, I holed it, of course).  2nd nine was different.  Went over green on #1 in two and paid for it.  Big hook off #2 tee into sh%t.  Lazy lay-up on #4 left in waste area.  Went for #5 green on drive, pushed slightly to front bunker, screwed up from there.   Such is golf!  But I love the course.

Do you mind telling me the local discount pass?  Feel free to IM me if you want to keep it under the radar.

[LocalPro]

Scott,
There are actually two local discount passes.  1. If you live in Lee County, NC, we have a Lee County Passport that includes unlimited plays at "The Road" for a savings of approx. 50%.  The card costs $35 and also has two plays at Carolina Trace, a 36 hole private Robert Trent Jones facility (some restrictions apply)  2.  There is also a Golf Capitol Card that includes 6 plays at 16 different courses in the area for a significant savings: Talamore, Legacy, Hyland Hills,The Carolina, The Pit ect.  You have to be a resident of Moore County or any county that borders Moore.  That card costs $54.   Both are great deals.  Being a resort area, we have more courses than people in the summer and winter.  Since everyone knows the "brother of the club president's car mechanic" or works as part time snack bar help at the driving range, the card helps everyone get a good deal without anyone calling in favors to every club pro in the area.

[JohnV]

Very good interview with Joe.  I remember enjoying Tobacco Road very much.  The only thing that bothered me was that there are a couple of tees that are definitely in the firing line for other holes.  Both the 3rd and 11th tees seem to be in very dangerous spots relative to the 2nd hole.  I remember walking back to the back tee on 11 and almost getting beaned by a player who was on the far right of the 2nd fairway and couldn't see me until I came around a hill.  Has anything been done to fix this?

Also for those who are interested, I noticed that Forrest Fezler will be playing in the final stage of Q-School for the Champions tour next week.  Even though he once hit me in the thigh with a shot during an exhibition at San Jose Country Club, I wish him luck.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Joe,
Thanks, I particularly liked the Clint Eastwood reference.

Has Strantz ever said why he did not employ the long par three between 12 and 13?  It would have been an interesting addition, I do agree.

George P,
We walked the course and it was not a tough walk at all, the two hikes aside, it was very reasonable.

Best,
Ben

[WilliamWang]

i enjoyed this course immensely the one time that i played
back in 1999, made the short trip down from chapel hill where
i was staying.  i had quite a nice conversation with one of the
marshals there about how underrated it was, at the time.  it
was a saturday afternoon in the summer and my threesome
saw hardly anyone else on the course.

here's an aerial from terraserver.  it dates from april 1998 and
compared with scott b.'s aerial all the primary shaping has
been done.  a few more months and the course would be
grown in.

[Scott_Burroughs]

That would be the aerial I referred to in the other thread.  This shot cuts off parts of where holes #5 and #7 are and all of #6 (cut off at the top).

Course is very walkable w/just two longish walks (between 12/13 and 14/15).  General slowness of rounds here allows walkers to catch up to cartballers on tee waiting for next group.

[Will E]

Last week I was lucky enough to get to see Tabacco Road. It's been more than a week now and I still don't know what to think about it. The fact that I'm still thinking about it says a lot for the design though. There are a few holes that are absolute "bullets", number 9, 10, 12, 14 stand out to me. For one to really understand this course it would take many loops around it to figure it out. I had the same feeling I had after my first experience at Blue Man Group. I wasn't sure what to think, I had never seen anything like it, I laughed a lot, I couldn't believe what I was seeing and I wanted to get back and see it again.
Joe and his staff were great, as is the wonderful clubhouse.
It's a must see.

[TinCup]

What about another Strantz course not far from TR called TOT Hill Farm?  

[Will E]

Tin Cup,
I'd like to hear more about TOT Hill Farm too. I didn't have time to play it and was told that it is not of the same quality of TR.