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Mike_Young

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AJGA
« on: March 24, 2006, 10:30:28 PM »
AJGA Mission Statement
"The American Junior Golf Association is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated to the overall growth and development of young men and women who aspire to earn college golf scholarships through competitive junior golf"
And now the USGA is supporting this group....and so many kids and PARENTS enter this with rose colored glasses.....why do we do this to kids....dont know if its good for golf.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2006, 10:43:34 PM »
"competitive" means some win, some lose.  Darwinism isn't always about the golf courses of the British Isles!

Mike_Young

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2006, 10:56:04 PM »
Bill,
what I am trying to say is how many parents spend a lot of money taking these kids from tournament to tournament with the intent of golf scholarships only to find out that there just isn't that much.  I don't think most D1 schools even have 4 full rides to give.  I have no problem with competition just don't promote the organization to the unknowing as though many will receive scholarships.  the AJGA ad says 3500 are on a scholarship presently ....I wish that was expalined a little more thoroughly.....like how much were these schollies dollar amounts....not enough to warrant the expenditure these parents have spent over the last few years....
And then you talk about a group slowing down a round of golf.....the juniors at our club that play AJGA events are much slower than b4.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2006, 10:59:32 PM »
Mike I can't argue with any of that.  Parents are just as big a problem in tennis, baseball or even T-ball.  You haven't lived until you've barely avoided a fist fight with an over agressive parent!

Actually, young women probably have a better chance if they have talent due to Title 9 requirements for colleges.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:AJGA
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2006, 11:02:27 PM »
Yep, I agree on the title 9...a young lady that shoots 85 can get a scholly.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:AJGA
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2006, 11:07:13 PM »
And that's a good thing.  Too bad neither of my girls was even the  slightest bit interested in golf!

Tim Gavrich

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2006, 11:25:04 PM »
As someone who has participated in AJGA events (a few qualifiers and one of their NIKE Series events), pace of play can be a problem.  HOWEVER, they have a pretty strict pace-of-play system.  If you haven't already, give it a read on the website.  It doesn't always prevent 5-hour rounds, but those are nearly inevitable in tournaments.

Is the AJGA good for the game?  I'd say it is.  Not all the kids are jerks, and not all their parents are overbearing and full of it.  It provides opportunities to good golfers who would normally lack the funds to compete regularly.  There is no downside to this.

It's funny; many tournaments are being held on longer courses, even in the junior ranks.  Still, there are some on shorter courses, but these seem to be decreasing in number.  Most courses are set up aroud 7000 yards, because the kids with $300 shafts in their $600 drivers are hitting the ball tour-distances.  But, who's to stop it (I know I know, it's the age-old question)?

I'll continue to be a member of the AJGA, as it is the best-run set of tournaments, and provides the most exposure to college coaches.  I'll admit, I'm looking to play college golf, and I'd love to get a scholarship.  But I (luckily), unlike others, am a student before a golfer.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Kevin Atkinson

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2006, 11:27:07 PM »
Mike

I rarely...if ever post on this site but I can't resist on this topic.  I think your attitude toward the AJGA is awful and very negative.   Your comment about not knowing if the AJGA is good for golf is absurd.  Anything to teach these kids the type of life lessons the game of golf can teach is good for kids and that is good for golf.  

I was involved with the AJGA playing in many very competitive junior tourneys growing up and ultimately I did not get a golf scholarship...nor was that the "goal".  For kids, it is about having fun and competing with your pals.  If the child is not having fun playing the tourneys than parents should not even enter them.  However, if you know anything about the AJGA tourneys, they are highly competitive outings that most parents would not even enter their child in without already understanding that their child could actually compete at a high level.  These are not just local golf tourneys that are randomly entered by unsuspecting parents.   Hopefully parents understand , that the AJGA type of environment is healthy for their kids to be around, learning great life skills that they can and will use later in life.  I am sure that is why the USGA is supporting the program.  Your comment about "why do we do this to kids....dont know if its good for golf."  I would reverse the comments and say more kids should be involved in the game of golf because I KNOW that golf is good for kids.

Golf has been my life.  It all started in childhood and the AJGA tourneys (along with many others).  Those valuable life lessons I learned early on have led me to being a golf course architect and promoting the game of golf to other youth.  

Matt_Cohn

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2006, 11:50:07 PM »
The AJGA is not all sunshine and roses - it's political at times, it's competitive, and it takes money to participate. That said, overall, it's a pretty good organization, and I remember how much I liked the AJGA staff who actually ran the tournaments. It was always a really fun atmosphere at the events. This was 7-10 years ago, but I hope it still holds true!

David Ober

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2006, 12:38:23 AM »
AJGA Mission Statement
"The American Junior Golf Association is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated to the overall growth and development of young men and women who aspire to earn college golf scholarships through competitive junior golf"
And now the USGA is supporting this group....and so many kids and PARENTS enter this with rose colored glasses.....why do we do this to kids....dont know if its good for golf.

There are actually lots and lots and lots of spots on college golf teams all over the country. Quite a few scholarships, too. And you don't need to be a +3 to get one either. A solid scratch junior can get a scholarship to any number of schools, and there are a LOT of scratch kids out there nowadays.

My son doesn't play AJGA events, but he plays lots of SCPGA Junior events and I know lots of kids that do play AJGA events. Overall, I'm impressed with the organization and what it teaches the kids.

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents...

Anthony_Nysse

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2006, 06:52:28 AM »
Summer of 2005, Long Cove hosted the AJGA's Rolex Tournamenet of Champions. (An invitation only event that the kids say is equal to the US Junior Am because of the worldwide field.) Several kids showed up 3-4 days prior to their practice rounds to putt our greens, use our range and hopefully get invited to play by a member. Many kids had swing coaches and, boy, they had some great swings! I felt that the AJGA was extremly professional in their set up, the way the event ran and how well the kids acted. I will agree that they play VERY SLOW and they played in 3 somes with average rounds being over 5 hours. There were over 60 college coaches here, many from the top schools in America. I thought that they AJGA did a wonderful job and I hope that I have the chance to work with them in the future. Some kids go to camp for the summer, some golf all over America. All these kids can play great golf...spolied, maybe, talented, definatly! I believe that it is just guaranteeing them exposure.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 06:54:53 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Brent Hutto

Re:AJGA
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2006, 07:32:25 AM »
I wonder how long before there is an American Preschool Golf Association (APGA) which is a full-time travelling semi-pro competition circuit for 4-8 year olds to prepare them for AJGA competition when they get a little older.

It's never to early to start learning the intricacies of travel, hiring and firing your entourage, playing at the proper tournament pace (5-1/2 to 6 hours), and expecting the golf courses you play to be prepped to perfection before you blow into town.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:AJGA
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2006, 08:04:43 AM »
Look guys...I am not talking about how they run tournaments or how nice their staff is....I am talking about how it develops juniors.  I think you will d efintely hear more rumblings in the near future.  
I played junior golf but it was played for fun and yes it could have been better organized.  
I don't know how many of you have ever seen these programs where parents sign up their kids for scholarshp services whether it be basketball, football or soccer.  In short these services take a fee and supposedly seek scholarships for these kids.  When in fact the good ones don't need it.
With AJGA ,some parents  will spend over $50,000 during a junior career in order for their kid to be out there.  
Yes, the AJGA concept seems good and parts of it may be but it is good for a very limited number.....And that is where people are having a problem.....Junior golf needs something that encompasses te entire game for juniors....I think the PGA and many state run organizations do this but I see no reason why politics should mingle the AJGA with the USGA.  JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:AJGA
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2006, 08:22:31 AM »
Mike,
  In my last comment, I stated "I believe that it is just guaranteeing them exposure." All in all, this is what the AJGA does. Coaches know that they can look at the best kids in the country all against eachother at one time. It's the same thing with AAU basketball. This kids travel all over the country in the summer to get exposed in a diciplined setting where coaches and scouts that can compare each kid to one another.
  In your last post you wrote about kids getting scholorships, "When in fact the good ones don't need it." My dad thought that same thing in regards to my brother. My brother didn't play in tournaments in the summers and didn't travel throughout Michigan getting his name out there to hopefully gain a college scholorship. He was never offered one his senior year and he ended up being a 4 time All-State Golfer in Michigan. It's just a controlled way to gain expose, though, by the time some of the kids do get scholorships, their parents could have paid for several years of college!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Dan_Callahan

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2006, 08:30:43 AM »

With AJGA ,some parents  will spend over $50,000 during a junior career in order for their kid to be out there.  


That's one year's tuition at a private college or university. If the exposure secures a scholarship, the $50,000 turns out to be a pretty good investment.

A.G._Crockett

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2006, 08:42:06 AM »
The AJGA is by far the premier organization in the world of junior golf.  I know Steve Hamblin, the executive director of the AJGA very well; he's a good man who has the best interests of his organization, kids, and the game of golf at heart, as he sees them.  He works really hard, and has done amazing things with the AJGA.

That said, the AJGA is another example of how out-of-whack youth sports have gotten in this country.  Speaking as a 31-year veteran of high school coaching, looking at what we've become in the arena of youth sports is just tremendously disturbing.  In the case of golf, HS players routinely miss HS matches/tournaments (or even elect not to play on the HS team) to concentrate on their "tour" schedule, whether it is the AJGA, the IJGT,, or whatever.  The concept of NOT playing on a HS team to focus on individual stuff CANNOT be good, and the same scenario plays out in other sports in other ways; AAU basketball, travel baseball, select soccer, ODP volleyball, and on and on.  

The money is huge, the time commitment is huge, the pressure is huge, and the returns are very, very limited.  All of this is sold on the basis of the Holy Grail of the college scholarship.  Well, I'm here to tell you that the number of college scholarships is vastly more limited than most imagine, and the quality of athletes that get them is vastly higher than most understand.  Additionally, in everything but Div. I football and basketball, the scholarships are split so many ways that they often constitute a tiny return on the investment in the various jr. sports programs.  In short, it is often a scam (intentional or not) by the jr. sports programs.  The concept of playing and competing being their own reward is a dying creature.

I fear and believe that money is at the heart of it all.  Those of you who have kids that play baseball, soccer, tennis, golf, etc. at the higher levels know what I mean.  Parents get stuck in a spending rut to try to help their kid keep up competitively; you can't unilaterally change the system, so you go along to get along.

In the long-run, I don't think that we will find that any of this turned out to be good for the kids or the game.  The elite few from the AJGA who make it in college golf or professionally will be cited as justification, just as they are in other sports.  The majority of players who fund the organizations and don't see much return for their investment will be little or no better off for the experience.  In fact, my observation is that more and more players in all sports are becoming disillusioned and leaving the games; too much time, too much pressure, not enough fun.  They reach a point where they realize they don't need it under those terms.

I know this sounds like a "good old days" rant.  I just don't see any of this as a positive trend for golf, kids, or society.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

jeffwarne

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Re:AJGA
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2006, 09:13:09 AM »
A.G.,
No doubt the spirit of your post is right.
I'm sure the AJGA has it's share of dedicated individuals who are trying to do the right thing.
I do agree with Mike Young that the mission statement of the AJGA should probably not include a goal of obtaining scholarships for players.
I used to teach a lot of kids who ,while decent jr. golfers,were always struggling (because of their ranking and ability) to get into Ajga events all over the country. Inevitably they would travel, at great expense, to the ones they got into , which often were across the country.
I used to plead with the ones of limited means(and /or limited talent) to spend the time instead practicing,taking lessons when appropriate,and competing at the LOCAL level.
It always amazed me that someone would fly to Texas, shoot 79,81,79 and finish 87th and felt that was valuable experience.
Gaining confidence through achievement at a local level is more practical, realistic, and cheaper.
I'm amazed at how many skip their local events out of lack of time ormotivation, yet would be hard pressedto win a local one day event.

No doubt traveling and unfamiliar circumstances are part of the training experience, but only for the highest level AFTER success has been achieved at a lower level.

I call it the travel soccer syndrome.
Nobody wants to play" in house" soccer anymore. My small town has 3-4 travelling teams who drive all over creation playing tournaments instead of just having a four team league right here and playing each other. The time spent driving could be spent practicing and/or enjoying something else.
Little League baseball is one of the few  organizations that has managed to mainly dodge this bullet where play is at the local level until an all star team is selected and those kids play at season's end against nearby local towns progressively travelling farther as they advance in a the national tournament.
As opposed to soccer where everyone thinks they should be on a travel team so there are no local teams(except for little kids)

But Ag's right, it's all part of a bigger problem,
as exemplified by my 11:00 am Sunday morning emergency Little League board meeting to deal with the lawsuit being brought by the parents of three children who didn't qualify for the major leagues based on tryouts. God forbid they would play with other children their age and ability in the minor leagues.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:AJGA
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2006, 09:41:20 AM »
Jeff,
The best one I've heard recently is a park near me that has, for the first time this spring, split their SEVEN AND EIGHT YEAR OLDS into a major and minor league!  The "major" league is viewed as a gateway to travel baseball, then HS and college, etc., while the minor league is billed as being "developmental".  Wanna guess how the families and kids in the minor league view their assignment there?  Wanna guess the % of the kids in the minor league who'll still be playing in a couple of years?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:AJGA
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2006, 02:21:16 PM »
Mike,

You asked "how it develops juniors". In terms of what? As tournament golfers, as well rounded young adults, as normal kids on summer vacation? Just a question, not an implication.

For the AJGA to encompass the entire junior game, and to really work with "the masses" of junior golfers, they'd have to do something completely different than running a series of national events. It seems like something only local organizations can really do effectively.

Since I played, the AJGA has doubled its number of weekly tournaments around the country - it used to be 2-4 per week, now it's 5-7 per week. They're trying to let as many kids play as possible. From a competitive standpoint though, they end up with really watered-down fields. You have a hundred kids every year who win AJGA events, and it doesn't mean as much as it did before. So that's the problem with creating more opportunities for kids to play. Should they have a "major league" and "minor league"?!

I totally agree with Tony's comment - "spoiled, maybe, talented, definitely!"

~Matt

texsport

Re:AJGA
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2006, 03:23:36 PM »
I don't see the problem you're describing with AJGA. If parents are ignorant enough to believe that all the kids who participate in AJGA events will get a full scholarship at a D-1 school, then it's their own fault. And if they don't know that full rides are very rare, they're also dreamers!

The AJGA is for kids who are the best in their age groups throughout the country, so it's not even open to most kids-tournament spots are limited.

Most competitive D-1 schools have 5 golf scholarships, I believe, and they divide them up amoung 10-15 players.

A full ride can best be obtained by getting to play at a smaller school which may not have quite the same Athletic Department budget that the big boys do. They generally have 5-7 guys on scholarship and aren't under pressure for the golf team to win the NCAA tournament. This may actually be a good route as these kids get to play tournaments without having to win a spot on their own playing squad every week. A lot of PGA Tour players come from small schools.

The opportunity to get an education while attempting to carry golf dreams to the professional level is what it's about. Just like in every college sport, only a very small percentage of college golfers become playing professionals. At least in golf, former college players can become club professionals and make a good living doing what they love. Not too many of us get that luxury.

I know about 30 young men and women who participated in AJGA events and got D-1 scholarships. They will never forget the experiences and the thrill of competition at this level.

As for the AJGA, my kids participated and were good enough to be invited to play all over the country. They gained a degree of maturity from the experiences that are priceless.

One of them got a golf scolarship in D-1 and is now a professional golfer.

Texsport
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 03:27:46 PM by John Kendall,Sr. »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:AJGA
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2006, 03:50:56 PM »
AG,
You stated it well.  
I know one tour player and one ex tour player who was a  the USGA Jr Champion and they both refuse to let their kids compete in the AJGA events.  As AG says...I am sure these are good hard working people that run the AJGA but IMHO and that of many others, it burns kids out early on golf.....as for scolarships..I think most D1s are 4.5 schollies...
John K,
I understand your side but just disagree with much of it...one problem I hae seen with many young people that are working in the different proshops etc trying to attain their Class A is ..they do not understand the dfference etween being a professional golfer and a golf professional...I am sure that kids gain much good from AJGA events but as Jeff says ..there is too much good stuff locally without traveling all over the place and spending that kind of money....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:AJGA
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2006, 04:13:07 PM »
The question is whether focusing attention and dollars on the top 2% of junior golfers is really good for golf in general.  I am leaning toward Mike and A.G.'s side of the issue at the moment.

texsport

Re:AJGA
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2006, 07:39:59 PM »
AG,
You stated it well.  
I know one tour player and one ex tour player who was a  the USGA Jr Champion and they both refuse to let their kids compete in the AJGA events.  As AG says...I am sure these are good hard working people that run the AJGA but IMHO and that of many others, it burns kids out early on golf.....as for scolarships..I think most D1s are 4.5 schollies...
John K,
I understand your side but just disagree with much of it...one problem I hae seen with many young people that are working in the different proshops etc trying to attain their Class A is ..they do not understand the dfference etween being a professional golfer and a golf professional...I am sure that kids gain much good from AJGA events but as Jeff says ..there is too much good stuff locally without traveling all over the place and spending that kind of money....

Well, of course there are a lot of good programs locally. In Houston we have a great HGA Juniors program and it lets every kid play who wants to. They have to know the rules and learn golf etiquette before being allowed into tournaments. These local programs are the nurseries for future golfers. My kids started there playing in 9 hole tournaments when they were 9. Before that there were club tournaments starting as soon as a kid could play 9 holes.

Now beyond that, if you want to play golf at a D-1 school, the system is--you play in AJGA or other national programs to get exposure.

Lets consider it from the coach's perspective. If he wants to recruit good players, he can't possibly go to 1,000 cities to see the players. It's just the system and you've got to realize it to realistically have a chance to play big time college golf.


It's just like baseball. When kids are under 12 they play in Little League, where every child plays in every game and bats in a continuous batting order. But when they get to high school, a coach decides who the best players are and those kids play.

The AJGA is an extension of high school athletics whereby the potential scholarship players identify themselves in competition. The AJGA is mostly for kids 16-18 years old, not beginning golfers.

There aren't any kids being forced to play by their parents,I'll guarantee, because they'd never develop sufficient skills to compete. The kids love it.

As far as spending money, kids trying to get baseball scolarships play select league baseball all year round. Kids trying to play college football attend summer camps and weight train year round. It's just what you have to do and I don't think this is much different than a kid that goes to graduate school hoping to be a company president. Few make it but a lot try. It's about encouraging the kids to reach for their dreams. If you don't strive for excellence, you sure won't reach it by accident.

I'm not sure what your complaint about young pros not knowing the difference in being professional golfers and golf professionals is. You'd have to clarify that before I could have an opinion. Are you saying that the youngsters shouldn't act like they can play golf well--because they must to get A classification, or, that they don't treat your club like a business job enough, or, that it's a tough road to get a class A and get a Head pro job?

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:AJGA
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2006, 07:52:41 PM »
While there may only be a limited number of scholarships available each year at DI schools, that doesn't lessen the relative value of a successful AJGA season. There are plenty of exceptional DIII schools that take pride in fielding competitive teams. Look at Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, etc.—the schools that vie for the Sears Cup each year. A strong student who also has an impressive golf record has a leg up on other admissions candidates (read The Game of Life for a fascinating look at the number of spots that are set aside for athletes at DIII schools—created quite a stir among NESCAC schools when it came out several years ago).

Of course, DIII schools (and Ivies) can't offer a scholarship, but they circumvent that with generous financial aid packages. Easy to do when you are a school of 2,000 students and have an endowment of $1 billion. Golf and some other sports (in addition to the obvious football, soccer, baseball also includes womens hockey, crew, squash, etc.) can be a ticket to a world class education. Success at AJGA events is vital to showing those coaches a player has the talent to compete with the best.

Brent Hutto

Re:AJGA
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2006, 09:21:08 PM »
Success at AJGA events is vital to showing those coaches a player has the talent to compete with the best.

Shouldn't this be "Success at AJGA events or in top-level junior amateur and amateur competitions" or do you believe that success in non-AJGA amateur competition is devalued by college recruiters?

For instance, surely qualifying for the US Open, winning a couple matches in the match-play at the US Amateur or playing in the semis at the Junior Amateur would be more impressive than a win or two in AJGA events. Or least it should be, IMO.