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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion Photos
« on: March 24, 2006, 01:11:25 PM »
Anybody have any good photos of Merion they are willing to share?  

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2006, 01:16:34 PM »
Go to Carlyle Rood's golfarch.com webpage.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2006, 01:32:41 PM »
Thanks Michael.  

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2006, 01:40:46 PM »
Where the heck is Carlyle lately?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2006, 01:51:48 PM »
That is a nice web site Carlyle has put together.  Can we comment on the bunker edges at Merion or is that taboo. :P

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2006, 02:07:02 PM »
Kelly,
I agree with you, that is a very nice website with some great photos!  I was looking for a specific shot and sure enough, it was on Carlyle's website.

I don't plan to comment on any of the Merion bunkers.  I'll leave that to others if they so choose.
Mark
« Last Edit: March 24, 2006, 02:42:34 PM by Mark_Fine »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2006, 02:18:12 PM »
That is a nice web site Carlyle has put together.  Can we comment on the bunker edges at Merion or is that taboo. :P

Kelly,

I for one would certainly appreciate hearing your professional opinion.  Are we here to learn and discuss or to be PC?

Mike
« Last Edit: March 24, 2006, 02:18:43 PM by Mike Cirba »

Larry_Keltto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2006, 02:31:22 PM »
Carlyle's "golf aesthetics" survey is fascinating. Perhaps it's been discussed here before and I missed it. Take the time to go through the survey and then view the results.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2006, 04:41:27 PM »
Kelly,
   I would love to hear your take on the bunkers there. When I saw them they didn't jump out as anything that bad after all the uproar there was here a couple of years ago. However, someone pointed out to me that the grass was bluegrass and that was problematic, but my memory is such that I don't remember why the bluegrass is a problem.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2006, 05:06:34 PM »
Kelly:

Let's hear your opinion, please.

While much has been made of it on GCA, I don't recall a golf architect ever being part of the "dialogue".

Plus, it's been at least 3 months since we had a thread about it and the ensuing spitting contest that is sure to follow!

Incidentally, for those who truly long for the "white face" look (I'm not really one of them), the "500 Greatest Golf Holes" book by George Peper et al has several pictures of them.

TEPaul

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2006, 06:57:27 PM »
"When I saw them they didn't jump out as anything that bad after all the uproar there was here a couple of years ago."

Ed:

All that uproar over the Merion bunkers a few years ago was because those who were uproaring didn't even think to give the grass on the bunkers the time to grow first. That's how architecturally savy some of us "architectural analysts" were about those bunkers initially.  ;)

I think they look pretty cool now but unfortunately despite perhaps looking pretty cool now the undeniable fact is they don't look much like anything Merion East has ever had before. On the other hand, Merion East's bunkers went through at least three fairly different "looks" before this recent bunker project. So this present "look" is the fourth different bunker "look" in Merion's history. The previous three Merion bunker "looks" were evolutionary, however, and not the result of a previous bunker "project".

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2006, 11:57:49 PM »
Tom,

Did we have to wait for the grass to grow at Friar's Head?  At Pacific Dunes?  At Boston Golf Club?  At Trump National??  (sorry, thought I'd throw you a curve)  ;)

Hell Tom... a great bunker looks great if you shave it down to the bare nubbins like a friggin chihuahua.  In fact, I can't think of too many things that would lose their complete character and attraction if you shaved them to their bare essence...except...

the bunkers at Merion.  ;D

sorry...don't want to influence Kelly's opinion, but long grass has become the boob job of golf architecture...looks pretty good from the outside and covers some sins but it's hiding a lot of stitches and silicone.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2006, 03:20:49 PM »
The different styles the bunkers have gone through is something I know little about.  I do not like the heavy grass edge on bunkers because from a strategic standpoint if the bunker isn't enough to cause one to consider where to play the shot, or cause havoc once one is in the bunker other considerations should be given to the form of the bunker other than growing a bushy eyebrow on it, further the look for the most part does not carry beyond the bunker edge, outsdie the bunker edge everything for the most part goes back to the maniicured look, so there is a disconnect in my view.  The grass plugs in the bunkers are downright silly, I think what Gil has done at French Creek, and CC at Hidden Creek with the introduction of grass into bunkers in the form of a clump or on an earthen form is much more attractive and certainly can wreak havoc on the recovery shot.  Spading plugs into the sand does not look right.  Certainly this is all a matter of personal opinion as much as it is professional opinion, professional opinion probably is best left to those who have extensive knowledge of the full history of the course bunker evolution.  And finally the fairway lines so distant from the bunkers is disturbing.  

Ed I am not certain of the grass type on the bunker edges it appears there is some form of fescue in there.  I think if the bunkers were to take on a more rustic look unirrigated fescue along the edges that then flows into unirrigated fescue in the roughs is a very attractive look, but a parkland bluegrass course that tries to spot in fecuse patches almost never looks right.  Personally I don't like bluegrass because I like a more rustic look outside the fairways and blue grass is too manicured and almost artificial for my taste.  I like the mixtures of fescuses that transitions out to the warm season natives, little and big bluestems, wild ryes, etc.  Merion looks like it could go either way and really shine but it seems to be a little of both, and I think falls flat.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 03:26:48 PM by Kelly Blake Moran »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2006, 06:26:36 PM »
Kelly:

Would you please elaborate on your observation about the fairway lines being so far from the bunkers?

Does that mean that, as a general preference, you like fairway widths to be about at the inside edges of fairway bumkers?

Not saying I disagree; it sounds like a good thread topic all on its own.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2006, 06:30:01 PM »
If that is what Kelly is saying, I agree with him.  Fairway bunkers are supposed to be "fairway bunkers".  If they are left languishing out in the rough, I call them "rough" bunkers  ;)

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2006, 06:46:20 PM »
My recollection is that Merion wanted to restore the course to, what, 1930?  Is this what the bunkers looked like then?  I seem to recall a more different look, representing the famous "white faces" in some pictures in Geoff Shackelford's book (though I've never been to Merion, and don't off hand recall the dates of the pics in the book).  Can someone post one or 2?   I have the book, but can't post pics.

One other thing.  Are some of the redone bunkers at Merion hard to get in and out of?  I know of another course where the bunkers were done by MacDonald and Sons where that has been an issue.  The bunkers on that course look and play great (they actually look a bit better than the pic above), but ingress and egress is sometimes a mess.

Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 06:50:24 PM by Jeff Goldman »
That was one hellacious beaver.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2006, 08:28:45 PM »
My recollection is that Merion wanted to restore the course to, what, 1930?  Is this what the bunkers looked like then?  I seem to recall a more different look, representing the famous "white faces" in some pictures in Geoff Shackelford's book (though I've never been to Merion, and don't off hand recall the dates of the pics in the book).  Can someone post one or 2?   I have the book, but can't post pics.

One other thing.  Are some of the redone bunkers at Merion hard to get in and out of?  I know of another course where the bunkers were done by MacDonald and Sons where that has been an issue.  The bunkers on that course look and play great (they actually look a bit better than the pic above), but ingress and egress is sometimes a mess.

Jeff Goldman

Jeff,

Yes
No
Nope, can't post pics either unfortunately.
Yes

That sum it up?  ;)

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2006, 08:43:09 PM »
The bunkers still aren't nearly as attractive as they were.  Not even close.

The rough grass is just pro tour typical too.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2006, 08:50:38 PM »
The bunkers still aren't nearly as attractive as they were.  Not even close.

The rough grass is just pro tour typical too.

Oh Paul...you're such an annoying purist!  Give them time...by the time we're long dead and gone in about 50 years they'll be looking probably like about October, 1926, on their way to 1930.  ;D

"Back to the future" and all that jazz.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 08:51:37 PM by Mike Cirba »

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2006, 07:49:12 AM »
Kelly:

Would you please elaborate on your observation about the fairway lines being so far from the bunkers?

Does that mean that, as a general preference, you like fairway widths to be about at the inside edges of fairway bumkers?

Not saying I disagree; it sounds like a good thread topic all on its own.

Chip,
Yes I like the fairway edge close to the bunker in some instances I am able to make the fairway abutt the sand, or at least the edge, particularly near the green where many supers walk mow their approaches.  In many occasions I like the fairway line to wrap around the back of the bunker as well so that the bunker now "protrudes" more into the fairway landing area.  This makes the area around the bunker a viable landing area in certain cases.  If you look around the bunker it is surprising how much suitable land there is for fairway and how mnay interesting angles you can create by changing the area from rough to fairway, no matter what the original design was, that is irrelavant compared to creating more interesting options.  I think this has been discussed here, it is not anything new, but it is surprising how many courses have bunkers that are set in the rough.  

The super is most interested in how tight the turns are around the bunkers for the fairway unit.  I had mark sod lines yesterday and the super had concerns for some of the lines.  I told him I am going to push it as far as I can within what I think is reasonable but certainly he must intercede to make the turns work for him.  In some intances I we adjust the line, and in others he felt he could go into the season the way it was marked and see how it works and make adjustments later if need be.  
« Last Edit: March 28, 2006, 07:51:15 AM by Kelly Blake Moran »

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2006, 08:42:42 AM »

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but have a Merion related bunker/rules question:

I come up woefully short on 13 and put it in the massive front bunker (sad, yet true story). But, my ball comes to rest in the grasses inside the bunker. Can I ground my club? (I think not ... and did not ... but coud I have?)

What if I'm on the grass in the church pews at Oakmont? Can I ground it there?

- Dan
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2006, 08:45:45 AM »
Dan,

Nope, no grounding.  You're still considered "within the hazard".

wsmorrison

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2006, 08:52:08 AM »
Mike,

I'm about as bad as it gets on rules...that's why I play with guys who know the rules.  But I suspected you were wrong.  Maybe this decision supports my view:

28/9 Ball Lying on Grass-Covered Ground Within Bunker Deemed Unplayable


Q. A player’s ball is lying on grass-covered ground within a bunker. The player deems the ball unplayable and elects to drop it under Rule 28b. Must he drop it in the bunker?

A. No. Grass-covered ground within a bunker is not part of the bunker. Accordingly, the player may drop the ball behind the bunker.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2006, 08:59:27 AM »
Mike,

I'm about as bad as it gets on rules...that's why I play with guys who know the rules.  But I suspected you were wrong.  Maybe this decision supports my view:

28/9 Ball Lying on Grass-Covered Ground Within Bunker Deemed Unplayable


Q. A player’s ball is lying on grass-covered ground within a bunker. The player deems the ball unplayable and elects to drop it under Rule 28b. Must he drop it in the bunker?

A. No. Grass-covered ground within a bunker is not part of the bunker. Accordingly, the player may drop the ball behind the bunker.

Wayne,

Now that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!   ::)  

Who's making the rules these days, the USGA??  ;)

Seriously, how does one determine whether the ball is lying on sand or on grass or some of both?   I guess it depends what "on" means, huh?   Very Clintonesque.

This also comes into play I'm sure on the type of bunkers we tend to like...those that sort of blend into their surrounds so that it's difficult to tell where the bunker stops and the "non-hazard" portion starts.

I just generally go by a personal rule of thumb;  If in doubt, don't ground the club.    ;D

p.s. Got your message while I was out at Jeffersonville this Sunday with Kyle.   I don't have the routings you mentioned...would enjoy seeing them.  Let's talk soon!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2006, 09:04:18 AM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

Re:Merion Photos
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2006, 04:19:09 PM »
"Seriously, how does one determine whether the ball is lying on sand or on grass or some of both"

MikeC:

Part of the definition of a bunker;

"Grass covered ground bordering or within a bunker.....is not part of the bunker."

Like anything else in golf one simply makes a determination of whether or not his ball is lying on grass covered ground within a bunker. Not much different than making the determination of whether a ball is OB, in a hazard, on a putting green etc----eg one simply looks and makes an honest determination.  ;)

"This also comes into play I'm sure on the type of bunkers we tend to like...those that sort of blend into their surrounds so that it's difficult to tell where the bunker stops and the "non-hazard" portion starts."

You're right about that, determining whether one's ball is in a bunker or on grass covered ground within a bunker becomes more and more difficult depending on the degree the margin of the bunker is blurred and indeterminant. Unfortunately, this was one of the primary reasons for the bunker project at Merion. The sand from many of the old bunkers used to just wash out of the bunkers onto the surrounding grass making it more and more difficult to determine if one's ball was in the bunker or on grass covered ground within the bunker. I guess you should be careful both what you like and what you wish for, huh?  ;)

« Last Edit: March 28, 2006, 04:29:27 PM by TEPaul »

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