Quick questions with Jim Engh

[Jay Flemma]

I'm doing a piece on Jim for Golf Observer.  Here are some interesting tidbits:

Jay: What’s the most important goal for you in creating a successful design?

Jim: For me, it’s all about options. The more ways to play a hole and get a ball close to the pin, the better.

Jay: What courses of the British Isles have given you ideas for your own holes?

Jim: Both courses at Ballybunion are incredible. I love a lot of the holes at the Cashen course, especially number 15. I also love the Old Course as well. 18 is just a fantastic finishing hole. Also the Northwest of Ireland holds a special place in my heart. My design team and I go over about four times a year. Enniscrone, Carne, and Rosapenna are some of my favorite courses on Earth. I’m really grateful to have a chance to work right now on the new nine at Carne.

Jay: You had a rude introduction to golf. Tell us about your first golf experience.

Jim: I crashed my first golf cart when I was two years old. Dad was playing and I was in the cart.

I jumped in the driver’s seat and took off and overturned the cart right on top of me. It was a frightening crash. The cart crushed one of my kidneys. I was lucky though. I got up from my deathbed. I survived my growing pains.

Jay: What are some of those growing pains now?

Jim: Well I still feel bad when my work gets misunderstood. I really try to take into account everything in a property to maximize the golf holes, yet make it a player friendly experience.

Jay: Like trying to add some walking paths at Lakota Canyon.

Jim: Yeah. I try to start by making the best hole I possibly can. The most interesting and strategic. Sometimes a hole is not as easy a walk as others, but I'm a walker. I have a small ping bag and boots or sneakers. I spend so much time in the UK where its almost all walking and I want to recreate that old time, authentic experience whenever I can. Sure, sometimes my hills are pretty tough, like 16 at Pradera which is 200 feet in the air, but the payoff when you get up there is incredible.

Jay: What's in your CD player?

Jim: Well I'm a huge Van Morrison fan. I see concerts of his all over the world, Ireland, San Franscisco, anywhere I can. Van Mo is my guy.

[Andy Troeger]

Jay,
Thanks for posting this...I'm surprised it did not get any responses. Interesting comments about walking and his philosophy!

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The issue for someone like Jim Engh is that too few of the folks who post here regularly have played a solid sampling of his layouts. In most cases -- you have people who have played just one or two and then these same folks go out of their way to extrapolate that Engh "doesn't get it."

The Engh layouts I have played all try to max out the "fun" element when there. Not all are home run efforts -- e.g., True North in Michigan and to a lesser degree Hawktree but places like Pradera and Lakota Canyon Ranch -- both in CO -- are flat out fun layouts and keep you interested time after time after time.

There are clear favorites here on GCA -- Engh is an extremely talented gentleman and I dare say some of his best work may be just ahead.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

 Engh's new private course at Reynolds Plantation in GA- The Creek Club- opens next year.

www.reynoldsplantation.com/the_creek_club.htm

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

You are also one of the biggest advocates of "unknown" designers and I commend you for that, but not many people have time to see EVERYTHING.  There are still tons of people on here who haven't seen much of the work of H.S. Colt or Tom Simpson or Bill Langford or any one of 100 other architects.  

So, just for the record, what in your opinion constitutes a "solid sampling" of someone's work before we can decide we don't like it and move on to others?

In my opinion, one course is never enough to draw conclusions about an architect, but once you've seen two courses you can start to make conclusions about his style based on what facets of the course are the same or different, and by the time you've played three you should be able to decide if you like them or not.

[Don Dinkmeyer]

I agree with the options comment on Ballybunion 18. My recollection is a narrowing fairway to a "high" green with lots of mounds around (Be gentle, i am a GCAer in training-note the big red L in my window for Learner!)

 Have not played the Cashen course.

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

If you'd seen my three courses and really just didn't like them, then I wouldn't expect you to keep looking for my best work.  I assume that you saw enough of interest to want to go back and look for more   and the same for Bill and Ben's work.  That's all I was saying.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

You are correct

Cary

[jeffwarne]

I was intrigued by the statement that he goes to the northwest of Ireland (or did he mean the UK in general ?) 4 times a year with his design team.
Is that because of work he's undertaking, or is he referring to research/recreation?
Wonder if he needs an intern ?

[Jack_Marr]

I was intrigued by the statement that he goes to the northwest of Ireland (or did he mean the UK in general ?) 4 times a year with his design team.
Is that because of work he's undertaking, or is he referring to research/recreation?
Wonder if he needs an intern ?

I assume when he mentioed Northwest Ireland he was referring to England, or maybe France.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Engh is a member of Carne in Ireland and is working on a new 9 holes there.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
  Very true, however after all of the comments about Engh's courses and walking a little while back I thought this might pick up some steam. I do agree that the difficulty with Engh is that he has not done that many courses and many are in the same general area. His style also appears to contrast with some of the "favorites" here.

Tom,
  I agree with your general principle...based on the principle that once can be unique, twice can be coincidence, and three times marks a trend, but certainly the more the merrier in this case. I think I've played three Ross courses and was not overly impressed with any of them, but I would still dare say had I played a different sampling I might think differently. Again though, I do agree with both your posts, there's no absolute answer.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

Interesting comments.

So if he is a walker and seemingly cares about the walker so much, why do the courses he designs show such a distinct lack of such care (from what I hear and see in pictures)?

How also do you reconcile this with the previous statements?  You know, 90% of people ride, so I design for them?

TH

ps - Andy - this is the first I am reading this thread.  

[Brent Hutto]

So if he is a walker and seemingly cares about the walker so much, why do the courses he designs show such a distinct lack of such care (from what I hear and see in pictures)?

How also do you reconcile this with the previous statements?  You know, 90% of people ride, so I design for them?

Seems easy enough, Huck. When I'm at work I have to read some really boring stuff and sit through some meetings that would bring tears of agony to eyes of someone less professional than me   When I'm not getting paid, I wouldn't give any of that stuff a second glance.

He earns a living designing golf courses for a very different purpose than his own use. Therefore, the end result is very different. [EDIT] Let me amplify that point. The majority of golf courses built in the USA today most assuredly do not have as their reason for existence the pleasure of some guy carrying a Ping Moon bag and wearing hiking boots. Pity.

[John Kirk]

Jay: What's in your CD player?

Jim: Well I'm a huge Van Morrison fan. I see concerts of his all over the world, Ireland, San Franscisco, anywhere I can. Van Mo is my guy.

Can we instantly love an architect's work based on his musical tastes?  Like Jim Engh I will travel to see Van, and I listen to his music all the time.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brent - that makes sense to me - of course he likes to PLAY walkable courses, but he's paid to please clients, and he gets difficult sites, so he does what he can.

I can live with that.

I just still don't want to praise him as some modern genius architect though, that's all - as fun as his cartball courses may be.

TH

[Jack_Marr]

Jay:

Interesting comments.

So if he is a walker and seemingly cares about the walker so much, why do the courses he designs show such a distinct lack of such care (from what I hear and see in pictures)?

How also do you reconcile this with the previous statements?  You know, 90% of people ride, so I design for them?

TH

ps - Andy - this is the first I am reading this thread.  

I think he means that he doesn't like playing his own courses.

I'm joking, of course, but do you think, because of his reputation, people hire him to develop the more severe landscapes?

[Tom Huckaby]

 
That is a good one, Jack!

In any case, it is very likely people do hire him for severe sites - he is developing a great reputation for such.

And of course there is nothing wrong with this...

Again my issue is just how his work should be looked at.  I believe it's great for the developers, not so great for golf in general (given it's so purely cartball), thus if anything it should be given it's own category and tolerated at best, praised sparingly if at all.

TH

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I doubt that the site at Reynolds Plantation in GA is severe. Let's see how he does there.

[Tom Huckaby]

I doubt that the site at Reynolds Plantation in GA is severe. Let's see how he does there.

Of course.  Then that course will be judged on its merits.  If he makes a cartball course out of it, well then it's hard to say much positive.  If he takes a walkable site and makes something great, all praise be given to him.

 

[bakerg]

From Steve's link above:

www.reynoldsplantation.com/the_creek_club.htm

Is it me or are there three seperate greens for the 18th hole?  I have only seen two greens used before.  Is this a first?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Yes, there will be 3 greens at the 18th hole there. Engh couldn't decide which one he liked so he said why not do all 3!!!!

[Jay Flemma]

Huck:

Fair question.  JKim has worked with several quite severe properties.  I wonder if other designers may have turned down such sights as being too severe.  Both Lakota and Pradera have drops measuring 100-200 feet.  Pradera is walkable...I did it.  I was tired at the end.  I had to leave my bag at the bottom of the hill at tee 16 and clamber up billy goat style, but I made it.

Lakota is completely different because they have not yet grown walking paths....WHICH THEY MUST AND CAN.  I walked 18 holed there in the thin air and was exhausted after 6 holes.  I barely made it around the back and was so winded by the time I finished I had to take 10 minutes to recover my air.

Look...Jim really was accurate when he said that he takes walking into account, but when faced with the dilemma of scuttling the best possible hole design because it might be a difficult or inconvenient walk, he voted in favor of the best possible hole and I think that what he means and what people "interpreted are two different things.

I'll point out one other thing. Lakota and pradera won my vote for best new course awards last year...DESPITE the fact that they lost a couple points for dificulty in walking...that's how good the designs were...especially pradera...the greenside chipping swales on 10 and 17 are like Pinehursts and the lines of charm on 7 and 18 are classically Mackenzian. Now 10...for natural setting...is butt ugly compared to the rest of the course...but its a strategic giant even at a mere 310 yards!  One of the two best holes I played all last year.

Now when I asked the Engh staffers what were the best holes at

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

Again, I have nothing against Jim Engh, nor do I think many, if any, GCA's would have turned down the work at these sites.

I just do continue to believe that cart-ball is one thing and golf is another.  So sure he does what he believes is best with these sites, and more power to him.  

In any case citing his praise and the awards he got from GD is meaningless to me, and I am a GD panelist.  What I am saying again, is that I have no doubt these courses are great fun.  I just do continue to believe they ought to be put in a separate category of cartball or the like, because as fun as they are, they are not good for the game.  If I were king, that's how it would go.  I am not king.  

TH

[Jay Flemma]

I am NOT referring to Golf Digest rankings...and I really have to disagree that lakota and pradera are bad for the game...p[radera is especially good for the game...I thyink its downright epic.

 lakota is solid...redlands maybe more so...from a routing perspective