"The Jeff" Jeffersonville Golf Club

[Kyle Harris]

I'd say Jeffersonville would have to be older than 1931 and maybe older than Aronimink. McGovern's daughter would certainly know. Her number is around here somewhere.

One reason I say that is there's an ad in that July 1931 Delaware County Times Special Edition for the Penna Amateur Championship at Aronimink that says;

"Jeffersonville Golf Club was designed by Donald J. Ross Associates, nationally known planners and builders of championship golf courses. This course is noted for its velvety, creeping bent fairways, interestingly trapped, and its rolling, beautifully wooded fairways".

Since that ad is in the summer of 1931 it sounds to me like the golf course had been around a while.

Michael:

The word around here has always been although the course was built under the Ross name, and receipts were found paying the Ross Co, that McGovern did this one himself, and his daughter who seemed to be very close to Ross confirmed that. That would probably explain why it doesn't show up on Ross's list of courses.

MikeC:

You think you got a deal on green fees? The fee in that ad was $1 on the weekdays, $2 on the weekends and 50c for women on Tuesdays.

Mike,

I've got a lovely blue outfit for you... if you're interested tomorrow.

[Craig_Rokke]

With the pre-construction routing, some of the holes (ie
parts of 4,5,7,8, if my memory serves) seemed to converge in
a busy manner. I remember a lot of "traffic" after finishing what was the short par 3 #4. Has the routing of the front nine in particular changed at all?

[Kyle Harris]

Craig,

Some of the greens have been relocated. I am not sure as to whether or not this is a restoration of orginals or what.

The 6th green is now closer to the property line and the 7th green is further behind the 4th green. Both have the Ross "feel" to them.

The routing on the back has changes as well, with 17 amd 18 now being 11 and 12, with the old 11th now the 13th.

From an old routing in the locker room, it appears that a new tee on 17 was constructed, making the dogleg even sharper. The driving range tee has been expanded as a result of the room created.  

[michael_j_fay]

Tom:

If McGovern did this one himself it would be quite unusual that they would refer to DJRoss and Associates in the ad.
I would bet that the layout was done by Ross and the course building by McGovern. I agree that the 31 daye is suspect but it might explain the situation. Walter I. Johnson finished some Ross courses in the 30's as WPA projects. Seventy five years later it is going to be hard to get the whole story.

I would be interested to hear what McGovern's daughter has to say.

One way or another it will join DuPont CC as a new entry on our list.

[T_MacWood]

Kyle and Mike
Thanks for the very encouraging report.

TE
Based on that statement why do you get the impression the course had been around for a while?

1931 sounds about right to me, The Annual Golf Guide of 1930 did not list the course.

I don't put much stock in McGovern being a loose canon (a lot of that talk was in attempt to rationalize some decisions). I'm sure Ross gave his associates (McGovern & Hatch) a certain amount of limited freedom, but in the end the courses were designed by Donald J. Ross & Associates.

[TEPaul]

"If McGovern did this one himself it would be quite unusual that they would refer to DJRoss and Associates in the ad.
I would bet that the layout was done by Ross and the course building by McGovern."

Michael:

It might be unusual that McGovern did this one on his own but considering the circumstances, why not? It was obvously a pretty small public course project. I see nothing remotely unusual about the course being under the banner of Donald J. Ross and Associates. After all McGovern worked for Ross, he was his local office manager here and why would Donald Ross mind that his name went on what his primary local foreman did? Certianly the course would've preferred to use the name Ross rather than McGovern.

But you're right, the proof is McGovern's daughter, she was right there and saw it all, and none of us did. I spoke to her about it.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Did you explain to McGovern's daughter how little respect you had for her old man?  

[TEPaul]

As I recall you wrote a thread on this website asking who knew anything about J.B. McGovern. Apparently you posted that thread and asked because you said you didn't know anything about him. Wayne and I posted on that thread that McGovern has never had a very good reputation around here as an architect and it's probably due to the fact that the one course he was considered to have soloed on, Overbrook, has never had a reputation around here as much of a course.  

That's all we reported and you turned that around and responded we didn't respect McGovern and we were trying to assasinate his character (look it up on that thread). That's a pretty odd response from a guy who said he knew nothing about an archtiect and when he's given an opinion from some who do know about his reputation as an architect because they come from the city he lived and worked in he gets semi-hysterical over the response.

I also just happened to ask Flynn's daughter once if she could recall anyone in the business her Dad didn't like and she said the only one she'd ever heard him really criticize was J.B. McGovern. When I asked her why she said she didn't know why he didn't like him as an architect just that he said he didn't like him as an architect a few times.

When we told you that you got even more hysterical and accused us of assasinating the character of one of Ross's best foremen who in your opinion, because he was one of Ross's trusted foremen, must have been a good architect.

One wonders why you bothered in the first place to even post the thread asking who knew anything about McGovern if you already knew he was a good architect.

You just said:

“TE
Did you explain to McGovern's daughter how little respect you had for her old man? “

God only knows why you would say something like that to me at this point, Tom MacWood, but as far as I’m concerned you can’t just take that remark of yours about me and McGovern and his daughter and just shove it up your ass. Every now and again you complain you can't understand why I get personal with you sometimes. I'll make it clear for you then---it's because you post incredibly ridiculous remarks like that one.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Based on that statement why do you get the impression the course had been around for a while?
1931 sounds about right to me, The Annual Golf Guide of 1930 did not list the course."

The only reason I say that is that ad just doesn't sound to me like it's describing a golf course that's only been open for a few months. Probably the best way to find out when the course was built is to ask McGovern's daughter who told me she remembers the project really well or just check the couty records.

[TEPaul]

"I don't put much stock in McGovern being a loose canon (a lot of that talk was in attempt to rationalize some decisions). I'm sure Ross gave his associates (McGovern & Hatch) a certain amount of limited freedom, but in the end the courses were designed by Donald J. Ross & Associates."

A few months ago you posted a thread on here asking if anyone could tell you anything about J.B. McGovern but now you seem to know all about him. How is that possible other than another typical baseless Tom MacWoodism?

Have you ever even laid eyes on ANYTHING J.B. McGovern ever did in architecture?

[Kyle Harris]

"TE
Based on that statement why do you get the impression the course had been around for a while?
1931 sounds about right to me, The Annual Golf Guide of 1930 did not list the course."

The only reason I say that is that ad just doesn't sound to me like it's describing a golf course that's only been open for a few months. Probably the best way to find out when the course was built is to ask McGovern's daughter who told me she remembers the project really well or just check the couty records.

FWIW, I got the date from the sign at the club. It's on the scorecard too.

[Craig_Rokke]

You'll get a kick out of this: I have a golf guide called:
"Golf America:Complete Guide For the Eastern US." It lists
Jeffersonville's founding date as 1904. Any remote chance that McGovern/Ross etc did a revision?

[T_MacWood]

TE
How much weight do you place in the recollection of architect's daughter or son? I'm not sure the precise number of courses McGovern was involved in, but it has to be well over 100. I think it would be difficult for anyone to recall with confidence one out of dozens seventy-five years later.

I think they are an extremely useful resource when gathering info on the subject--such personality, interests, family background, etc--I'm not sure I'd rely on the them for attribution confirmation. As example: Burbeck's son and Bethpage, Jack Flemming son claims his father designed Cypress Point and Wilson's daughter would tell you her father should be credited with Shinnecock.

[TEPaul]

"TE
How much weight do you place in the recollection of architect's daughter or son? I'm not sure the precise number of courses McGovern was involved in, but it has to be well over 100. I think it would be difficult for anyone to recall with confidence one out of dozens seventy-five years later."

Well, Tom MacWood, you can speculate any way you want, as you always do, sitting out there in Ohio without ever having been here or without ever having talked to any of these people. I spoke with McGovern's daughter for a long time and her recollections are just fascinating. She remembers all about Jeffersonville and very well, and probably because it was one of her fathers few "solos". She also remembers Donald Ross really well. He was around here a lot (a lot more than most of us ever thought). She said he was like a favorite uncle to her and that he was about the kindest man she ever knew. She said his daughter Lillian even lived over the Ross office in Wynnewood when she was first married. The office McGovern managed. She even said Ross always put his hands in the sides of his vest just like the photos of him. Her best friend was the daughter of the supeintendenct of Aronimink who lived in the house that's still the maintenance office today.

But obviously sitting out their in your Ivory Tower in Ohio you think you know better than she does too. It's unbelievable how you try to rationalize anything and everything to serve whatever odd point you're trying to make at the time.

[T_MacWood]

"TE
How much weight do you place in the recollection of architect's daughter or son? I'm not sure the precise number of courses McGovern was involved in, but it has to be well over 100. I think it would be difficult for anyone to recall with confidence one out of dozens seventy-five years later."

Well, Tom MacWood, you can speculate any way you want, as you always do, sitting out there in Ohio without ever having been here or without ever having talked to any of these people. I spoke with McGovern's daughter for a long time and her recollections are just fascinating. She remembers all about Jeffersonville and very well, and probably because it was one of her fathers few "solos".

Interesting speculation.

[TEPaul]

"As example: Burbeck's son and Bethpage, Jack Flemming son claims his father designed Cypress Point and Wilson's daughter would tell you her father should be credited with Shinnecock."

Personally, I believe Burbeck's son. I don't know a thing about Jack Flemming or his son. What did his son say? What did Wilson's daughter say about her father and Shinnecock?

[TEPaul]

"Interesting speculation"

It would be if it was speculation but in this case it's first hand knowledge. Definitely better than anything you could ever come up with out there. It's hilarious how you don't realize that

You seem to try to rely on old magazines and newspapers---eg second and third hand information, at best.

[Mike_Cirba]

You'll get a kick out of this: I have a golf guide called:
"Golf America:Complete Guide For the Eastern US." It lists
Jeffersonville's founding date as 1904. Any remote chance that McGovern/Ross etc did a revision?

Craig,

That's fascinating and if accurate, certainly means that J'ville must have started as a private club.  I'd be curious to know what other courses might be listed from the Del Valley in that guide.  

What year was it published?

[T_MacWood]

TE
I think a combination is the best way to go...first hand accounts and confirmation through other sources like newpapers and magazines (like what Craig discovered above). But I agree with you that first hand accounts are very useful and can provide excellent leads.

Speaking of good research how is your PV essay coming along....have you finished it yet?

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael Fay,

I must have missed your original post about DuPont and the Ross connection.

Did Ross actually build the original DuPont course that's there now, or iwas it something else on another site?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

[Craig_Rokke]

You'll get a kick out of this: I have a golf guide called:
"Golf America:Complete Guide For the Eastern US." It lists
Jeffersonville's founding date as 1904. Any remote chance that McGovern/Ross etc did a revision?

Craig,

That's fascinating and if accurate, certainly means that J'ville must have started as a private club.  I'd be curious to know what other courses might be listed from the Del Valley in that guide.  

What year was it published?

Mike-

It was published in 1996. It's almost like a phone book-sized
Power's Guide. The listing for each course usually carries the architect's name and year the course opened. Who knows where their information is obtained, or how accurate it may be as far as dates go.

[michael_j_fay]

Mike:

From what I am told it was built on a site that was abandoned for a testing area for DuPont. The course, however , was in play for a number of years.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

From what I am told it was built on a site that was abandoned for a testing area for DuPont. The course, however , was in play for a number of years.

Thanks, Michael;

I did manage to go back and find the thread where it was discussed (courtesy of Mayday Malone), and it's fascinating to learn.  

[Craig_Rokke]

The Pennsylvania RR put out a series of maps in about 1921. I'm
going to try to get to the library and see if this course was around then.

[TEPaul]

"Jeffersonville's founding date as 1904. Any remote chance that McGovern/Ross etc did a revision?"

Craig;

I mentioned that 1904 date to Ron Prichard last night. It was the first he'd heard of that but he essentially did say it wouldn't surprise him as some of the green sites et al seemed fairly basic to him when he came in to do the restoration of the course. In other words he felt some of them may not have been that representative of Ross in the era of the late 20s or early 30s and may've preceded that. He said the course did have those multi-set bunkers which he'd also seen at Irondequoit in NY. One of these days I might go to the County Seat in Norristown and see what I can find on the deeds of that land. I'll call McGovern's daughter again too.

I also went over to Paxon Hollow G.C. yesterday and toured around the course with Hanse & Co's Jim Wagner who's been doing some good looking bunkering over there. Some pretty wild topography on that site. It's owned by its township as Jeffersonville is.