[TEPaul]

Anybody on here know? Has anyone been there recently or worked there on a golf project?

From the sound of it China has absolutely exploded in every way in the last decade. I hear there are a number of new courses over there and basically all of them are from the big-name architects---eg Fazio, Nicklaus, Player etc. It sounds like the names of the clubs and courses are almost total mimics of some of the most famous courses of the world, and mostly American---eg Pine Valley etc.

From anyone who knows it in the last few years, what do you think the spectrum of possiblities are in the future for golf and architecture in China? Do you think there may be some inherently "Chinese" style for some reason in golf and architecture in China or would it likely be something like when golf architecture first exploded in America in the beginning of the 20th century---eg just anything and everything? Will there be a C.B. Macdonaldsung and a NGLC (National Golf Links of China)?  

[Jfaspen]

Wouldn't that be the PGLC Peoples Golf Links of China?

Also. I remember reading that Jack N. was contracted to develop a site with 6 or 8 courses on it in China.

I havent heard how it turned out.

jf

[Chris Neff]

The club in China that is pretty large is Mission Hills. They had the World Cup a few years back. They have each course done by a different designer. I think they have 10 courses built now (Don't quote me on that). They have some big names Sorrenstam, Singh,Faldo, Jumbo Ozaki, Els, Leadbetter that have all done design work. If I'm not mistaken they also have had Schmidt and Curley invovled somehow in the projects. But it is pretty amazing piece of property and everything you could possible need is on the property.

Chris Neff

[wsmorrison]

Chris,

I hear if Pinehurst builds 9 and 10 Mission Hills is prepared to build one or two more courses to stay ahead.  It seems as though they have a good idea what's going on over here in the US.  Maybe they'll be persuaded to follow a more naturalist approach in the future.  I hope they've heard of some of the minimalist/naturalist architects that are usually favored on this site and a part of a return to classical design philosophy.

[Matt_Sullivan]

I live in China (in Beijing). Here are some of my thoughts on the game here on the Mainland:

-- Still a rich man's sport with very limited penetration (in terms of participation or even basic knowledge/awareness) at the middle class and below

-- Vast majority of clubs are private or resort courses. There are very few public courses (eg, there is only one in Beijing and it is a nine-holer). There are also very few "members' clubs": most private clubs are for profit operations where the members have little or no real say in the management of the club. This potentially has some long term negative effects (eg, with things like funding junior golf programs and the like)

-- The game is very new here (less than 20 years of history). This has all sorts of ramifications. For example, a lot of talent (teaching pros, architects, supers) is imported; etiquette is very poor (playing and watching); clubs are generally poorly managed (eg, maintenance is hit and miss; marshalling is non existent); standard of play is low

-- Architecture is predominantly "American" style: Florida or resort type layouts are the norm. This is probably because many of the architects are American; and because US-style courses is what most people's conception of a golf course is (via TV, or holidays in Florida etc). A lot of the courses have a housing/hotel component.

-- There are some very good tracks (eg, the two Spring City Courses, Pine Valley, one or two at Mission Hills). I have played or walked quite a few of the higher ranked ones, and while they are good, I would say that the best of them would be lucky to scrape into the world top 50. I have not see anything that looks particularly "Chinese" as yet, architecture-wise (it may exist, but I haven't seen it)

-- Walking with caddies is common (and damn enjoyable!)

-- Media coverage is ok (the PGA Tour is carried on one of the local sports stations). Crowds for things like the Johnnie Walker Classic and the HSBC Champions tournament are decent, but not earth shattering. The local players (like Zhang) get an enthusiastic following

-- Golf course construction had been booming but the government is concerned about new courses eating up arable land and encouraging corruption among local officials. This creates some uncertainty about the pace of future developments.

-- A number of things can happen to see the game really take off: golf becoming an olympic sport (the govt would throw money at it then); the emergence of a champion local player (the Yao Ming effect); more widespread development of public courses (better access at reduced prices). The Yao Ming effect would probably have the biggest impact. For example, the emergence of a young local snooker player saw 100 million people watch him beat Stephen Hendry in a tournament last year.

Matt

[TEPaul]

Matt Sullivan:

GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and its reach just never ceases to amaze me.

Thank you very much for your post.

[TEPaul]

Matt Sullivan:

One other general question---

What is China today---some kind of hybrid "vestige communist/burgeoning capitalist" combination? Is there any country even remotely like it that way or do you figure China is entirely unique this way? Do the people who seem to have gotten so rich over there in the last decade or so have to be connected to local, regional or general governements or is there some kind of alternative to that?

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  What Chinese course could conceivably scrape into the world's top 50?  It would be news to me.

Shivas:  That sounds like the growth of the game in America in the early 1900's?  I didn't hear about anyone who sounded at all like Tom Bendelow, and that's why golf in China is still a rich man's game.

[Matt_Sullivan]

TEPaul:

"What is China today---some kind of hybrid "vestige communist/burgeoning capitalist" combination?"

In my view, little remains of communism except for the dictatorship aspects. It is still quite an autocratic (and in some ways repressive) place. There is plenty of burgeoning capitalism -- at both micro and macro levels

"Is there any country even remotely like it that way or do you figure China is entirely unique this way?"

I think China is unique for a number of reasons and this is certainly one of them. Looking ahead, I think the present Chinese government would like to turn China (or at least the bigger cities) into maxi-Singapores: well organised market economies run by a (mostly) benevolent dictatorship

"Do the people who seem to have gotten so rich over there in the last decade or so have to be connected to local, regional or general governements or is there some kind of alternative to that?"

Connections to government are key for entrepreneurs if they want to have enduring success (ie, stay out of jail). To generate real wealth (say, 5-10M plus) connections are important.

But you can become rich in China (say US$200k per year plus, which is rich by local standards) by working in professions where there is a talent shortage (and there are plenty of these). The new upper middle class is being driven by these people (who are often returnees (ie educated outside China) or overseas born Chinese)

Tom Doak:

The best course I have played here is the Lake Course at Spring City in Kunming, which is a great layout over spectacular, if unforgiving terrain. By world top 50, I meant excluding the US. But on reflection, even then it might be lucky to sneak in. It would probably be top 10 in Asia. It is arguably a better course than (or at least as good as), say, Blue Canyon (Thailand), Nirwana Bali (Indonesia), Saujana (Malaysia) and Tanah Merah (Singapore), which are among the better courses in Asia. However, I have never played the great Japanese courses.

[Marty Bonnar]

Fascinating country, people, environment, cuisine!

We were there a couple of times a year or two ago. Had a couple of very good leads for course development but our timing couldn't have been worse as the Government placed their (to us!) infamous moratorium on any new environmental work just as we were getting going. Not sure if it's been lifted yet?

We did meet up with some other archies there too. Brian Curley and also the guys from RTJ II were around as were a good few of the antipodean lads. Don't know if they had any more success. I'd go back tomorrow if I could!

FBD.

[Kerry Gray]

I have been fortunate enough to play in China many times. I always enjoy it even though many of the courses are not great.
To give you an idea fo the growth of golf in China I can relate this tidbit. When I first visited in 1998 their may have been 10-15 courses to play north of Hong Kong in the old Canton province. Now their must be over 50.
Fabulous service, caddies and modest prices are a few reasons I enjoy it. For the most part the courses are average.
A distinct Chinese style would be hard to decern at this point because most if not all of the courses are designed by foreigners. Japanese and American companies are common as "designers".
Yalong Bay (RTJ) and Nicklaus' Hot Springs course are considered fine courses. I hope to play both on my next trip in 3 weeks. I think Gary Players' Zhaoqing course is rather well done although it gets little press. It is built on one of the more flat pieces of ground north of Hong Kong.
I understand the Chinese government has placed a moratorium on building new courses. Not sure why but overbuilding is likely the reason. Several of my trips have been to very empty courses.
The terrain of China is so variable it will undoubtably attrach interest when building is allowed again. Within two hours of Hong Kong their are several very diverse natural areas with different topography and geographical features. Guilin (river valley) and Nasha (mountainous) would be two examples.
It is certainly not a place where are the best sites for courses have been already used.
Mission Hills is certainly worth a visit just to see the scale of the project. The Nicklaus course is fine and a few of the others are not bad.
It is expensive for the locals whose salaries have yet to catch up to the growth of thier ecomony.These resort courses that cater to visitors like myself are hiring and training hundreds of Chinese Nationals to play the game. Several of the caddies I have met are great players and can be found at the range early in the morning and late at night. Reminds me of the great caddy programs that brought so many juniors into the game here until the advent of the golf cart.
I agree with Matt many courses look like the owner fell in love with the Blue Monster but in some regions like Nansha, Goaming and Szenchen I have seen good uses of natural landscapes.
It can only get better.
Cheers.
Kerry.

[Matt_Sullivan]

Kerry raises a good point -- a distinct "Chinese" architecture will most likely be driven by the natural landscape which is varied and often spectacular.

The moratorium on new developments is driven by govt concerns about golf courses using up arable land and scarce water resources, particularly in the north. There was also widespread corruption at local levels in approval processes for golf course developments.

All this may lead to golf courses in China being built on "difficult" land. Also, while China is no bastion of environmental protection at the moment, things are progressing on this. So architects in China are unlikely to get the 60 year grace period architects in the rest of the wold got to build courses without regard to today's complex environmental regulations

[Steve_ Shaffer]

TEP

I just came across this note:

 Former Golf Magazine editor-in-chief George Peper forms ChinaLinks Golf Consulting, which expects to introduce golf architects to course developers in China, and will represent a select group of architects for projects within the Peoples Republic.

www.golfbusinesswire.com/2006_articles/104562

Steve

[Noel Freeman]

George Peper, in New Role, to Represent
Architects in China
Conference Set for Beijing in May


For Immediate Release
March 20, 2006



            ST ANDREWS, SCOTLAND: Former GOLF Magazine Editor-in-Chief George Peper has formed a new company whose mission is to introduce golf architects to course developers in China. ChinaLinks Golf Consulting will represent a select group of architects for projects within the Peoples Republic.
“Golf is only twenty years old in China, but it is on the verge of a major boom, with estimates calling for the construction of up to 1,000 golf courses over the next decade,” says Peper. “We hope to help facilitate that expansion by linking Chinese developers with the very best course designers.”
Peper's two partners are colleagues from his magazine days, the owners of GOLF Magazine China.  “Four years ago, the three of us worked together to launch GOLF in China, and it has since become the nation's largest and most respected golf publication,” he says. “Last summer, they approached me with the idea for ChinaLinks, and it seemed a perfect fit-I work with the architects in America and Europe, they work with the developers in Asia, and GOLF Magazine China provides publicity and promotion.”
The company has opened offices in Beijing and Hong Kong, as well as Peper's base in St. Andrews, Scotland, and has organized a China International Golf Conference in Beijing on May 19 and 20 when its first seven architect-clients will make presentations before more than 300 Chinese course owners, developers, and aspiring developers. The architects are: Mike Devries, Dana Fry, Don Knott, Mark McCumber, Kyle Phillips, Baxter Spann, and Peter Thomson.
The conference is supported by both the China Golf Association and the Royal & Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews, and will feature several prominent speakers from the world of golf, including National Golf Foundation President Joseph C. Beditz, Former PGA Tour Commissioner Deane Beman, R&A Chief Executive Peter Dawson, PGA Tour Properties COO David Pillsbury, Volvo Event Management CEO Mel Pyatt, and Former PGA of America President Gary Schaal.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Adam Barr of The Golf Channel on China:

www.thegolfchannel.com/core.aspx?page=15110&dv=7351988&select=18789

[wsmorrison]

If a Chinese developer wanted a golf course or two built to attract resort and/or real estate development and his desire was for the development team to provide a world-class golf facility, do you think they would recognize the renaissance going on today with classic era golf and be comfortable with a naturalistic style rather than what seems to be typical over there?  

The affinity the culture seems to have for natural and integration with the surroundings would seem to indicate that it might be so.

[Kerry Gray]

Wayne,
China best known course/club is Mission Hills. It has 10 courses built by famous architects like Singh, Els, Anika, Leadbetter and Olazabal. Some of the courses are pretty good (Nicklaus' World Cup course) but some are average or worse. I am not certain how many island greens their are but I think it may be 3 in the development.
So IMG may be running the design department.
That said Gary Players company has done a fair amount of work in the area and I was impressed with how minimilist some of it is.  
But big splashy designs with marketing as co-designers will likely dominate for a while yet. Feng Shui, while a nifty little business unto itself, has yet to impact the golf industry.
How does that mentality change?

Interesting note for those of you interested. This website has alot of info on courses in south China and around Hong Kong and includes photos of every hole they have played. They run a travel agency but are really amatuer reviewers as well.
I am not affiliated but have used there site to help select places to play. Click on the reviews link and select a course. It gives you a good idea of the great topography this area offers.
http://www.golf007.com/english/

Kerry.

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