[redanman]

Mr Sweeney, the whole of #18 is ho-hum
get me back to the house,
so under those circumstances
where tee to green it is pretty
tame, I see it as the green is
something fun on which to finish.

[Mike Nuzzo]

My last new jersey visit we played Hawke Point, next time I'd like to play here.

Lots of good looking stuff.
I must say I was also drawn to the "claw" bunkers.
I'd like to see a picture.

Would 2 smaller bunkers create the same carry dilema?

Cheers

[redanman]

#13





#13 original "short" set of bunkers

[redanman]

#18 green pre-clubhouse


#2

#15 mid fairway

same spot back towards tee

#7 green, note tongue to back right

#8

#8

[mike_malone]

 #15 is among the very best par fives I have ever played.

[Kyle Harris]

The 7th hole, Cory and I were lucky to play to the back right hole location.

I hit two tee shots. One into the front part of the green, and another trying to use the tongue of fairway and green to feed the ball back to the hole. That shot just ran out of mojo and was fed into the bunker - which wasn't too difficult of a bunker shot. It's easier to use the tongue than it looks, which is very nice.

Mayday,

The 15th is one of the better par 5s I've played as well. Again, both routes off the tee offer options with assorted risks involved. A calvalcade of whimsy abounds!

[George Pazin]

Bill, it's more likely that the discussing was waning beforehand. Maybe Kyle could add "updated with photos" in the subject line.

Thanks for the photos. I had forgotten how extreme the site appears. #18 doesn't look ho hum to me.

The ball must take some seriously funny bounces at MH.

I'm up for walking it!

[Dan Herrmann]

George - if you can walk Morgan Hill on a > 80 degree day, I'll be very impressed.  

Thanks for the pictures; I'd forgotten what a beautiful course it is.

We should do a 36 someday - 18 at Morgan Hill and 18 at Architects, right across the river in NJ.

[John Foley]

Dan - I always thought that would be a perfect 36 hole day!!

Bill V - Thanks for the pics.

Does anyone know with all the housing being built how much play it's getting? We played there on a fall Sunday 18 months ago and was amazed how empty it was. It was most likely because the word had not yet gotten out.

[redanman]

George can't walk it with his knee!

MH is relatively low on play because it needs Joe & Jane to play it more than once.  Those who play it a few times then play it over and over.  

It's a good example of how really great architecture and features get misunderstood in a single pass.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The photos suggest some severe terrain and quite a few bunkers. If this is so, does the course need all that bunkering over such undulating ground? Also, most every bunker pictured is on the uphill side of a hole. Why is that?

[Kyle Harris]

The photos suggest some severe terrain and quite a few bunkers. If this is so, does the course need all that bunkering over such undulating ground? Also, most every bunker pictured is on the uphill side of a hole. Why is that?

Jim,

They provide direction and things to tack around, enhancing the undulation. Also, the pictures on some are extremely misleading as there is plenty of room to one side or the other. They serve to pinch and define optimum angles.

[Matt_Ward]

As an FYI -- it is important mention that the photos posted of the 8th hole are a bit distorted in terms of the terrain. The hole plays downhill from the tee into a considerable valley -- the putting surface is indeed above the fairway but still below the teeing area.

I also have to mention one other hole at Morgan Hill -- the uphill par-3 14th is truly a work of art.

Building / crafting an uphill par-3 of true qualities is a rare bird indeed. The 14th plays just over 200 yards from the tips but elevation really adds on a minimum of 20-30 yards depending upon where the pin is located.

The green is a slender one and the slightest push / pull will only accentuate the error made at the tee. To Moran's considerable credit -- the landing area for the tee shots is not made receptive like a catcher's mitt. That would be the usual thing to do with such a demanding approach.

The 14th often gets lost in the sauce because it is sandwiched between the two unique par-5's on the back. It's one hole I have not forgotten on my times there.

[Thomas_Brown]

I'll indulge:

First few holes are GCA stimulating and interesting - my hopes were high, but then the terrain takes over

#5 - severely uphill, but interesting
#6 - I don't see this one
#7 - interesting
#8 - not risk/reward enticing enough.  To me, it's a filler hole
#9 - I'll take it personally - I lost my ball in the front bunker - why is there so much sand in there?
#10 - optionless - why is a 200 yard layup fun?  But, the rough down the left may not have been the architect's intention.
#11 - severely downhill and I'm not allowed to hit driver off of the tee - The right side of the green is actually rather clever.
#12 - severely downhill - what's Nicklaus' downhill formula again?
#13 - severe teeball - I'd have to play it more to really say I don't like it though
#14 - I'll agree w/ Ward.  I like this hole and its collection area in front
#15 - ditto on the collection area on the right.  good risk/reward.  I liked it, but I wouldn't call it a great par 5.
#16 - boring
#17 - severely downhill
#18 - good finishing hole

It's another Rustic Canyon - polarizing.
I'm still baffled how it's on the GolfWeek Top 2006 Public list.
After I see Stone Eagle, I'll have to see if I'm off the charts again on mountain golf.

[Mike_Cirba]

For the record, 14 is a superb, uphill, exhilerating par three.

16 I really enjoyed, as well, where you're tempted to keep the ball to the left but then end up flirting with falling off the severe sideslope.  The approach is almost skyline in nature.

[Matt_Ward]

What's really funny is how GolfWeek blew it with its top public course ratings for the Keystone State.

I mean it's downright laughable Stonewall makes the grade as the #1 available to play course in Pennsy. I'm still rolling on the carpet on that one. The course has its moments -- but they are fleeting and its further complicated with a routing that is forced-fed in spots.

Morgan Hill is easily way beyond Stonewall. I can make a case that another layout near to Pittsburgh -- e.g. Birdsfoot -- is even better than the #1 layout. Frankly, the bar for public golf in Pennsy has a long ways to go. The private side of the aisle dominates the landscape in the Keystone State and it's very similar to the likes with the Empire State.

The potential for even better public golf still can happen in Pennsy.

Pennsylvania
1. Olde Stonewall, Ellwood City (m)
2. Nemacolin Woodlands (Mystic Rock), Farmington (m)
3. Golf Course at Glen Mills, Glen Mills (m)
4. Great Bear, East Stroudsburg (m)
5. Club at Morgan Hill, Easton (m)*
6. Hershey CC (Old), Hershey (c)
7. Hartefeld National, Avondale (m)
8. Raven's Claw, Limerick (m)*
9. Links at Gettysburg, Gettysburg (m)
10. Toftrees Resort, State College (m)

 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Re: PA GW rankings

I haven't played Raven's Claw yet but they must have had an outing for GW raters according to Tony Leadora. Joe Logan told me he liked it better the second time around. Also, Hartefeld is no longer public. Also, WrenDale near Hershey should be somewhere on this list.

Steve

[Jason Mandel]

Steve,

Re: WREN DALE

I've heard its very good, but I also hear its private, and is only accepting outside play till membership fills up.  Am I wrong on that?

Jason

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jason

WrenDale is not filling up so fast according to some locals I know in the area. They were running ads last year for a 4 for 3 deal. It's semi-private with members getting preferred tee times. I don't think they have 100 members yet.

Steve

[redanman]

Jason

Wren Dale?  White Manor way blows it away.   WD was a big disappointment to me.  No stellar holes, no really bad ones, like a Hurdzan Frye course, you know? Very underwhelming and the short flagsticks sthick becomes more annoying rather than cloying or clever with each successive play. (They just about hit me in the cojones)  Absolutely no chances taken - nothing daring.  Most exciting feature?  #18 tees are lower down the hill the further back set of tees you play.  Doak 3-4.

H & F Exception: Shelter Harbout in RI, that's their best effort in the entire northeast. Doak 6, maybe a 7 to some.

Raven's Claw has excellent moments, it needs more grow in, was opened too early, needs another look by me, but a definite "best public in PA, but no Morgan Hill.  Notably better than Hartfeld, not as good as Great Bear, however all worth playing.

[Matt_Ward]

Those GCA idealists who are dead set against carts being used in assessing a golf course will not find Morgan Hill their "cup of tea."

Fortunately, I myself don't use such a holier than thou approach to course assessments. What makes Morgan Hill so special is that given a very demanding site the overall routing by Moran does in fact work and work well in a number of instances. Overly hilly sites present a swath of issues.

Clearly architects try to maximize the "downhill" situations in order to provide the golfer with a scenic panorama. Morgan Hill has a number of these situations.

However, as Jack Nicklaus find out early in his career, what goes down must invariably go back up. Unless you do what Jack did in many of his designs on such properties by deliberately having long cart rides between holes in order to get to the next highest point and go downhill from there.

Moran escaped that design puzzle very well. No doubt there are some holes at Morgan Hill that force the issue -- the uphill 6th hole is quite severe -- ditto the repetitive dropshot filler with the par-3 12th.

Yet, for all the site related difficulties Morgan Hill is a triumph that not only overcomes but in particular instances inspries the player with challenges to be relished time after time.

As I said previously, Pennsy public golf is still a good ways behind that of many different states. Those on the private side of the ledger see the state one way. The public side is changing and Morgan Hill, along with Great Bear, are indeed two courses that ay serious golfer needs to play.

[Jason Mandel]

Thanks Bill.

I really need to get out and see some of these new courses that have opened in this area.

Morgan Hill looks great from the aerial photo's, but your photos really show the severity of the topography and I'm interested to see how it plays.

One of my dad's friends is an investor in Raven's Claw, and I've heard mixed things about the place but sure liked the work Shearon did at Whitemarsh Valley.

Lederach looks promising as well. As far as Wren Dale goes, I was just going on some stuff I had heard.  I'm in agreement, I don't think I've seen a H&F course that has blown me away yet, but I've heard good things about Hamilton Farms.  

Let's get out and play soon as the weather warms!

[mike_malone]

sure liked the work Shearon did at Whitemarsh Valley.

   Jason,

    Could you elaborate ?

[Jason Mandel]

Mayday,

If I'm not mistaken Ed Shearon did all the restoration work that has been going on at Whitemarsh, the bunker work, etc.  It was my understanding that he is a member there and did the work pro-bono to help build a repuation.

Jason

[mike_malone]

 Jason,

   Thanks for your response. I knew those things about his work at Whitemarsh. But what did you like about the work? I am particularly interested in #17 and #18.

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