[Jim_Kennedy]

The Alps green as it looks today...

..the next two photos of it in 1890 'ish


...and the fairway bunkers, once again, 1890

These photos came from the Prestwick website: http://www.prestwickgc.co.uk/

Jeff,
Sounds like you built a good one in Kansas.
One question: Macdonald wrote: "If the ball carries far enough to get over the bunker by only a foot it gets a running fall and may go right past the hole into the bent....leaving the player with a difficult down-hill approach".
How did you achieve this effect if you did not use a punchbowl, or as Macdonald wrote, a "green(that) lies in a hollow" ?

Chip,
I remember one of the first times I played Yale in the '80s. I was told that the 3rd was the Alps and the 4th was the Cape. George cleared all that up for me.  

George,
Talking to CB? Are you down in the basement playing with your marbles again?    

[George_Bahto]

Chip - yes, just the hill but he tried to incorporate an area after the crest of the hill where the ball would feed down to the green - unfortunately, into the crossbunker - hah

that's a funny hole at ngla - is seems either you love it or hate it (depends on your quirk tolerance, I guess)

OK, so what happened after National - not many true Alps!!

It mostly evolved into what they (really Raynor) referred to as "Alps bunkering" - the full-across, cross bunker, originally with no walkway but as times went on and more manicured bunker sand hazards evolved, walkways were added cutting the crossbunker in half (and in the direct middle, yet - yikes how ugly).

Not many clubs would accept a more or less blind Alps shot so Raynor began to use the crest of the hill as the Alps fairway feature with or without a crossbunker - witness the 12th at Yale, a pretty good example and Jimmy Kennedy has one a fine example at Hotchkiss also.

Later, probably rather than haggling with a club about the hill preceding the green, he began just "simulating" the Alps by using (sometimes just moderate) rises in a fairway with the ball feeding into a punchbowl-style green, not cross bunkered. Lots of variations relative to local topo, of course

There seems to be a lot of similarities between the Alps holes and the PBowl holes - often combined, such as the great one at Fishers Island  - perhaps the most picturesque of all of them (Yeah, Donny Beck for running his putting green mowing up the hill as far as he has !!!!!!!!!)

(talking to CB, the old-fart? been accused of it, so might just as well 'fess-up" - can't get a word out of Raynor though and Banks is up in CT near Kennedy)

[BCrosby]

George -

Why isn't the 4th at Mid-Ocean a classic Alps? In fact, it is closer to the 17th at Prestwick than any other Alps I have played. But I never hear it mentioned.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul:
My question is: does #9 at The Creek qualify as an Alps?"

Chip:

Not in my opinion--not at all.

[George_Bahto]

BCrosby - perhaps, surprisingly and definitely unfortunately,  I've never been there - Tom Doak consults there,  perhaps he can answer the question.

[T_MacWood]

George
Did Banks build many Alps holes and how are they different (if at all) from Raynor or Macdonald's?

[George_Bahto]

Tom Mac: I can't think of any of significance in what we would think of in a "normal" Alps form.

After a while when on his own Banks made a few changes in style, the most significant was raising tees rather than the typical ground level tees CMB and SR used so much.

He included some of these thoughts in portions of articles he wrote.

He felt, although he was going to  work over the golfer strategically, he thought the golfer should have a decent view of what was ahead. He let the golfer see a little more of the Redan and did not incorporate very many blind shots in his designs unless topo-related.

I think the one that sticks out in my mind the most is the par-5 downhill punchbowl hole which is the first hole, forth nine at Montclair Golf Club.

He obvious had to use some  blind approaches on uphill holes but I can't get a handle on any Alps design.

[TEPaul]

When it comes to something like the "Alps" hole (or its concept of blindness) I think we should all recognize something about the evolution and history of a hole, a feature or a strategic concept like that.

First of all, one can find fairly regularly in the literature of golf and architecture that in the 19th century, particularly, blindness and various blind holes (particularly approaches to greens) was actually prized!

And then one can find, even more regularly, that into the teens and on, the blind hole, particularly the totally blind approach to greens, went completely the other way and became very unpopular and something that was considered to be a bad idea in golf architecture and something to be avoided if possible. Practically every architect in the late teens and into the 1920s said so and wrote so, even if in some cases they still practiced it to some extent (obviously because they had to occasionally if there was little way to avoid it in some topographical cases).

This is probably why some of the earliest "Alps" Macdonald holes like NGLA and Piping Rock were totally blind and as time went on that became much less so, obviously for the very reasons I just cited above.

What did remain of blindness in architecture into the late teens and 1920s and on even on into today is the use of features for "partial" blindness in the sense that a golfer had to deal with it if he played particularly conservatively or incorrectly.

[T_MacWood]

George
There was mention of an Alps at Tamarack (#6?)...are you familiar with this hole?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Should the 11th at Royal Liverpool have been included, other than by name?  It's a par 3 with no blindness, although it is not the original hole, which may have been blind.

[Tom Huckaby]

re Hoylake 11, here's what Cornish and Graves say:

Robert Chambers, Jr. and George Morris built this challenging par-3 in 1869.  It is described in The World Atlas of Golf as an oblong oasis in the dunes, with the sandy dunes creating the Alps effect.

They also show a diagram of it...and say:

Sandy dunes occur in the vast green space between tee and green on the 11th of Royal Liverpool Golf Club, Hoylake, England.

I've never been there - so do you hit over the dunes or not?  Maybe they are referring to a previous incarnation of the golf hole?  They don't mention such....

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - muchas gracias.

I've found that this Cornish & Graves book is pretty darn reliable though - how can one explain calling it an Alps hole?  Are the dunes at least such that you do have to hit over them to some extent?  Maybe there's a tee that is raised now but wasn't at some point?  I just have a hard time believing they'd get it completely wrong... it's listed as one of the classics.

TH

[Paul_Turner]

Mark,Tom,Sean

The 11th at Hoylake was a blind par 3.  HC designed the current hole in the 1920s.

The green site was different for the blind hole.  Just beyond the current tee and a little to the right.  If you own "Colt and Co"  there's a pic of the hole in transition i.e. both greens.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mark,Tom,Sean

The 11th at Hoylake was a blind par 3.  HC designed the current hole in the 1920s.

Paul - thanks - it must be the older hole to which they are referring - still strange they don't make this clear, however; those that no longer exist are marked NLE...

TH

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I think it might be because the holes is still called "Alps".

There were quite a few changes to Hoylake in the 1920s some of which were controversial, but the change to the 11th was widely applauded...the links game was moving away from the ultra quirky, particularly for its championship courses.  At about the same time County Down eliminated its two blind par 3s too.

[Tom Huckaby]

Gotcha.  So they leave it on as an homage to the old hole.  That makes sense.

TH

[Paul_Turner]

PS It's definitely Hoylake's prettiest hole.

[Scott Whitley]

How about the 18th at Dooks - would it qualify?

[George_Bahto]

Tom Mc: that hole at Tamack is a good example

[Paul_Turner]

Anyone have good photos of the Alps hole at St George's Hill (10th)?  I can post if you don't know how.

Thanks

[Lester George]

Gents,

Other than NGLA, the best "untouched" (lifgtly restored) Alps hole is at Cavalier Golf and Yacht Club in Virginia Beach done by Banks.  It was modified in the eighties but restored by me in 2002.  

I also just restored the Alps hole MacDonald built at The Greenbrier.  I had to rebuild the Alps feature and the green.  Both holes were restored from either original photographs or drawings from the originals.  Both turned out very true to original.  If I knew how to post pictures I would.  I can e-mail pictures to someone to post if anyone is interested to see them.

Lester

[Patrick_Mucci]

While we discuss Alps holes, do any of them have greens that replicate the Alps green on # 3 at NGLA ?

While the "Alps" feature can make the hole exciting, a unique green can make it outstanding.

[SPDB]

TEPaul
I'm not sure why Tom MacWood's is so ludicrous to you. I've often thought that there are distinguishing features between Raynor and CBM, particularly with respect to Alps holes. I've often thought that CBM usually liked to utilize natural features in his Alps holes (rises, hollows, etc.), whereas Raynor, it appears, had no trouble putting Alps holes where the land might otherwise not give it up (e.g. over flat land). We can see numerous examples of this - Camargo, Mtn Lake, and Yeamans Hall to name a few.

Perhaps this sampling is limited, in that CBM might not have worked on dead flat sites (Lido might challenge this assumption, and I don't know much about the original Chicago design, prior to SR's renovations).  It also might give more credence to the view that SR's designs were more "engineered" than were CBM's.

Lastly, George Bahto himself on this thread seems to indicate that Raynor's view of the Alps hole appeared to evolve, perhapst to the point where he simply utilized Alps "features," rather than striving to create replicas.

George Bahto -

What is your view on the 18th at St. Louis? Alps or not alps?

[George_Bahto]

I think 18 St Louis is an interest version of an Alps, yes!

They named it Oasis.

#5 is their Punchbowl

5 par 3's on the course. I guess CBM couldn't resist that interesting topography there.

[ChipOat]

Will somebody who knows how to post pix please ask Lester George to e-mail them?

I want to see the Alps at The Greenbrier!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()