[George_Bahto]

Patrick: I really like that line of play from left, rear of 12, especially with the green expanded, but I think you can only  use it if there is little play on the course.   Somebody will get killed.

[Doug Siebert]

Sorry for the dumb question, but I've been seen NGLA...  What is that small round area that the line in the "after" picture crosses right in front of the green?  Is it a very small pot bunker that doesn't have much sand in it right now, is a grass bunker or what?

[TEPaul]

George:

Knowing that hole I think it will play better with this alteration but you say this is the way Macdonald wanted it. How do you know that? Can you produce evidence of IF and WHEN it ever was this way? No speculation here, can you actually document this green was EVER actually that large at any time?

[wsmorrison]

"CBM's fronting and flanking bunkers aren't in play as much as I'd like them to be."

Agreed, Pat.  The green is much tamer and the bunkering much less in play and not as visually stimulating as the original.  On a great course with so many outstanding holes--template and non, this hole sticks out a bit to me as one that didn't hit the mark; whatever that was in CB's mind.

I don't know GCGC, can someone post a photo of the Eden there?  Thanks in advance.

[TEPaul]

George:

Having spent about a half hour on that green for this purpose, I wonder if NGLA recontoured any section of that area that's been expanded into green. By my calculations, if they did not do that probably only about 20-25% of the expanded green area would be pinnable at the speeds they generally run. I can even tell you exactly where I think that 20-25% pinnable area is. In my opinion, to increase pinnable area much beyond that percentage they would have to effectively raise the entire front half of that section up. If they didn't do that I think about the rear 3/4 of that expanded green would be unpinnable.

Do you have a date on that "rare aerial" of #13 on p 116 of your book?

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Now is no time to be a hypocrite. You know perfectly well the cross-over on #7/#11 at TOC pissed you off.  

How about this guys, if you're all so insistant that NGLA's #13 should be more like TOC's #7/#11 Eden? Put another tee behind #12 green (the way it once was) and put two flags on #13----one on the right in the new expanded green area to mimic the 7th of TOC and another one on the left of #13 to mimic the Eden at the old course. That way you could have the real double green effect at NGLA's #13 of 7/11 at TOC----who cares what Macdonald was actually trying to do on NGLA's #13?!  

So then golfers coming off #12 could have the option of playing from the left tee to the right flag (mimic #7 TOC) or from the right tee to the left flag (mimic #11 TOC).

Hell, I can do even better than that. On the first tee the group can agree to play #13 from BOTH the left and right tees to both pins and count #13 as two holes----eg #7 and #11 TOC)!!

Did I hear you say that would make a 19 hole round? No problem---if the group agreed on the 1st tee they wanted to play #13 that way (twice), then what they would do is proceed to the ladies tees on #1 and blast drives right up the hill to the 2nd fairway and play #2 as the first hole.

Did you say----then what about the actual 1st hole? No problem, that could become one of the world's coolest optional "Bye" holes if the need arose. If that was the case the players could just walk left off the green, put their clubs right into their cars in the parking lot right next to the 1st green and just forego the after-round drinks and get the hell home and make their wives happy.

Do I think of everything, or what?  

[wsmorrison]

"Now is no time to be a hypocrite. You know perfectly well the cross-over on #7/#11 at TOC pissed you off. "

Its not easy to get pissed off while playing TOC but I almost was...once.  I hit a long but wayward drive left on 7 (I know its hard to believe) so that I was kind of near Hill bunker on the left side of the double green.  Well, there were people on the 11 side of the green when I got to my ball so I had to wait for them to clear so I could hit over there positions.  Then the group playing 7 in front of us was taking forever on the green.  By the time they cleared and I could hit my approach to 7 the next group playing to 11 were already on the green.  I was stuck there for 20 minutes.  In order to catch up with my playing partners I had to pick up since there was never going to be an opening from that angle.  My caddie was laughing like crazy.  It was funny but I would've liked to finish the hole.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

The second group to play to #11 green while you waited were guilty of one of the most egregious breachs imaginable of the old time ettiquette of TOC. You should have either beaten them all to death with your sand wedge as they proceeded up onto #11 or had them all hung after the round which of course was your good right to have done.

Can't you just see the reaction of the wives of those players (I'm assuming they were idiot Americans for doing something that stupid and rude)?

St Andrew's police chief to their wives:

"I'm terrible sorry to inform you lassies that one of your husbands was beaten to death with the sand wedge of an irate Philadephian as he approached the #11 green out of etiqutte order and the other three were hung later in town."

Wives:

"Our husbands were WHAT?? Well are murder charges going to be brought against the Philadelphians and against St Andrews?"

Police Chief:

"Oh no, lassies, approaching a green out of etiquette order is more than a capital offense at the TOC. We even threw their bloodied bodies to the town's hungry mongrels."

[wsmorrison]

The guys teeing of on 12 probably never before saw anyone where I was that day while playing 7.  I don't even think the guys on 11 green, let alone 7 knew I was there waiting and wondering what the heck I was going to do.  My caddie told me that in his many years caddying, he'd never been there before and was likely not going to again.  

[George_Bahto]

Tom:

pg 115 "rare aerial" was a caption MIS-labeled by the publisher!

This PICTURE is crop of the model photo.

Most of what I've said about this green is my opinion.

The club made this decision and i think it is excellent one

[TEPaul]

George:

So then there is no evidence that C.B wanted it this way?

Nevertheless, I feel it will make the hole play more interesting despite the fact the club is taking liberties with what C.B did or wanted to do, as far as they know.

So, if the club is going to start taking those kinds of liberties with NGLA then I suggest they place a really good diagonal bunker-line scheme on the second half of #9. There's no question that would make that hole play much better and thankfully there is more evidence that that's what C.B may've wanted to do on #9 than there is evidence that he wanted to do what's just been done on #13.  

But one needs to be prudent and recognize when recommendations are being taken too far. That would most certainly include Patrick Mucci's cockamammy ideas to add a tee behind #7 and to move the driveway and C.B's Gates to make room for 50 or so yards on #18.  

[George_Bahto]

TomP: CBM OK'd the map making and the model making so I would say this is what he wanted at the time.

[TEPaul]

George:

When was that map model made again?

Do you think the club should also remove anything that was done to that course by other architects after Macdonald died? That is with the exception of tee length? I know Maxwell did something there and apparently Jack did something to #11 perhaps among other things. I know the club is trying to hide that fact but I'm not gonna let them hide it. They will just have to fess up.

I think the club should just remove the berms that Jack put in on either side of the road and just let big ball hitters on #11 tee just rip drivers blind over the hill and try to take out the the odd Mercedes, BMW, Rolls, Ferrari and Masseratti as they try to fly, bounce or roll it over the road.

[George_Bahto]

JN suggested the right side of the landing area, short of the berms, on 11 be raised. NGLA did it in house.

The title on the photo of the model is dated 1911 - Modeled by Edwin E. Howell" -  "Scale (of the model, presumably)
1 inch = 50 feet"

then on a 1929 drawing I have (1" = 100") the bunker "in the green" on 13 is drawn in.......... he OK'd that as also

this piece was the working drawing along with Macdonald corrections that precedes the restored drawing hanging in the proshop (formerly hung in the hallway area near the locker rooms.

go figure!

[TEPaul]

So George, you're then saying Macdonald put that bunker in the 13th green around 1929? If he did that he must not have had greenspace there unless he was trying to imitate Geo Thomas or something?

So, Macdonald put the bunker in there and took the greenspace out (if he ever had it there) and now NGLA took his bunker out and put greenspace in an area where it may never have been?

Next time I hear these self-proclaimed purists scream you shouldn't touch some of the really great classic courses at all I think I'll have to say that they probably feel that way only when it suits them.  

For me, I don't call myself that and I believe that if any hole on any course truly can be improved it should be. I like the new green space on #13 and I've always said that not having any idea what Macdonald did or didn't do there. I just wonder about the pinnable space over there. I know they can get pins down on the lower right in a fairly narrow band but I wonder about everything above that.

[George_Bahto]

Indications the bunker got put sometime BEFORE 1929 but no one knows when (yet).

CBM continued to change his course, as you know - but to modify HIS strategies.

So when was HIS BEST course best in his eyes???    I'd say somtime in the early 30's before he became ill (and perhaps overly stuborn - hah)

Tom, there are numerous pins back in that area as you will see. Three of us were out there a bit over a week ago looking at the area - you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[TEPaul]

"Indications the bunker got put sometime BEFORE 1929 but no one knows when (yet).

CBM continued to change his course, as you know - but to modify HIS strategies.

So when was HIS BEST course best in his eyes???    I'd say somtime in the early 30's before he became ill (and perhaps overly stuborn - hah)"

George:

If anyone really wants to act the part of the architectural "purist", as clearly some do on this website, you know what, on something like that I wouldn't try second guessing C.B. Macdonald. Just use the old "last in" theory, if you know what I mean. I doubt Charles Blair MacDonald actually got overly stubborn sometime in the 30s. I'm pretty sure that happened at some point in 1856.  

I like the attitude of that nice Creek Green chairman and what he said. Do you remember me asking him?---

"You're trying to flush out the ultra purists with that statement, aren't you?"  

I don't recall he was all that vocal with his response but he sure didn't say no.  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

If you'll look at the spacial relationships of all of the deep bunkers at NGLA to their adjacent greens, # 13, prior to this project, stands out like a sore thumb, due to its offset nature.

I can't think of anywhere at NGLA where a deep, greenside bunker is so detached from the green.

While that's no guarantee that the green originally abutted the deep right side bunker, surely it presents a prudent statistical argument.

George Bahto,

If you recall, one of the tees on # 2 is merely an extension of the green.

In addition, # 5 tee, # 13 tee, # 14 tee, # 15 tee and # 18 tee are in harms way as well, so a tee to the left rear of # 12 green would enhance the angle of attack relative to the juxtaposition of the bunkering around # 13 green.

The next time I visit, I'll make a point of standing over there, not far from the new back tee on # 7  

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

If you'll look at the spacial relationships of all of the deep bunkers at NGLA to their adjacent greens, # 13, prior to this project, stands out like a sore thumb, due to its offset nature.
I can't think of anywhere at NGLA where a deep, greenside bunker is so detached from the green.
While that's no guarantee that the green originally abutted the deep right side bunker, surely it presents a prudent statistical argument."

OK Padraig, you really want to get into today, don't you?

Sure the right bunker on #13 was detached from the green. Wonder why?

Isn't the right extension of the Eden Green at TOC the 7th green of TOC? When one plays the Eden at TOC are they supposed to hit the ball onto the 7th green while playing the Eden (#11)? Is that some kind of intended strategy? What do you think?

If not, then why does the Eden green at NGLA need green space over in the area that's a very loose mimic of the 7th green at TOC?

That's one way of looking at it but in my opinion, the green expansion over there is a wash---eg I think it might play a little better even if C.B. may not have intended that area to be greenspace.

The only thing that concerns me about this greenspace expansion is George Bahto. I know George communicates with C.B sometimes or tries to and if GeorgeB happens to have a bad year this year there will be no question in my mind it's because C.B. is really pissed at him for going the wrong way and supporting something C.B did not want to do on #13 NGLA.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

The angles of attack into the respective greens may have something to do with it.

The 13th green at NGLA has an unusually severe rise to the rear and the front and flanking bunkers have little impact on the play of the hole.

Mowing the grass to green height now brings an entire right side sector into play, with dire consequences for those who miss to the right.

I suspect that there might have been a tee to the left rear of the 12th green which changes many things about the play of the hole and the relationship of the "Eden" features.

However, I'm still puzzled by the severe nature of the back half of that green.  Does anyone think it resembles # 7 at TOC ?

Softening that rise would drastically improve the hole, but, as you know, I'm not an advocate of the domino theory.

[TEPaul]

"Softening that rise would drastically improve the hole, but, as you know, I'm not an advocate of the domino theory."

Patrick:

Have you temporarily lost your mind and forgotten every single thing I've ever taught you?

Softening the rise on the rear of #13???

That remark may be one of the greatest abominations ever floated on here.

The severe slope of #13 green and mostly on the rear and rear left is what totally makes that hole and its nuancy strategies.

It's precisely BECAUSE the rear does slope as it does that the front bunker (Strath) comes into play as it does when the pin is in the front section!!!

What are you going to do? What are you thinking when on the tee when the pin is in the front section?

You've got to get the ball just over the Strath bunker (and over the up-pitch of the front opening but you know you can't get it too far behind the pin or you have a massive problem two putting back down that severe slope.

Don't you know what "Feature Balance" is that creates great strategies?? Don't you remember anything I've explained to you?

This is it in spades---eg the rear green slope in relation to the Strath bunker to create awesome strategic ramifications on the tee for a front pin. Architecture doesn't get much better, more sublime and yes even effectively simple than that.

"Soften" the rear of the green? If the slope back there becomes a problem for something like pinnablilty then NGLA should just use their head like any other course and slow their speed down to where that green plays as it was designed to play.

And as for you! Go to your room immediately without breakfast and do not come out until I tell you to.

 

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Unless, of course, you are talking about the rise on the rear of the new green space on the right. If so see my remarks above about that and GeorgeB's response.

If you are only speaking of the severe rise of the new greenspace on the right, only then can you come out of your room and have breakfast. But you can only have a half an English muffin because the way you wrote that post is very unclear and very confusing and it looks like you're suggesting softening the rear of the Eden green where greenspace has always been.

[ChipOat]

George:

I don't believe a 13th tee box to the left of the 12th green would endanger anybody thereon.  People park their cars in that area all the time if they're starting a "short" match on the 7th tee and there have never been any reported problems with errant missiles off either #6 tee or #12 approach.  In fact, I believe that the current #13 tee box is more exposed to injury than that which Patrick proposes.

I'm not sure I'm especially keen on his suggestion without standing on the spot myself, but not for the reason you proposed.

Patrick:

You need to hit shots more like me and less like you.  If you did, you would discover from experience that the following tee boxes are also probable danger zones:

#3 (bladed approach on #2);
#4 (skulled bunker shot from front of #3 green);
#6 (a big hooked 2nd shot in the prevailing crosswind);
#7 (skulled bunker shot from left front);
#8 (big slice on 2nd shot #7);
#9 (flyer lie from right rough on #8);
#10 (even you might have been there);
#12 - new back tee box (sliced approach on #11);
#16 - original on right (squirt lie from left rough on #15).
#16 - new tee on left (skulled from Redan Bunker on #4 - I'm not kiddling).

I haven't hit anybody yet, but I've sure yelled "fore" a bunch.

Try it my way just once.  You've battled back from worse, I know.

[George_Bahto]

Chip that's very funny.

I agree standing on 13 tee is pretty dangerous.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I find the "Eden" green and surrounds at GCGC far superior to the "Eden Green and surrounds at NGLA.

I think the rise in the 18th at GCGC enhances the play of the hole and provides far greater variety in hole location versus the excessive rise in the 13th at NGLA, which prevents variety in hole location and restricts the playability aspect.

If the 18th green at GCGC was substituted for the 13th green at NGLA it would be a better hole.

If you agree with that premise then you should support the softening of the rear shoulder, excluding for a minute, the domino theory.

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